Globalization - Page 2

NousDefionsDoc · 03-18-2005, 11:01

it sounds like you think it is fine, as long as the US is making the rules?

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But, the problem with this idea is that there are evil nations and people in this world, which once they rise to a level that is on par with the other powers of the world; they just want to be the only ones in this position, thus causing instability.

There are many who say this about us.

Nuclear non-proliferation and human rights are also products of globalization, are they not?

NousDefionsDoc · 03-18-2005, 11:03

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Originally Posted by Bill Harsey

Powerful stuff, thanks for linking that.
We have been impacted by China for a while now because of their voracious use of steel. This has increased our prices and impacted availability of even fine tools steels made in the United States.

The captains of industry I have contact with tell me "standby, this isn't getting better."

I'm not being a smart ass - is there a finite quantity of steel in the world?

**Bill Harsey** · 03-18-2005, 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

I'm not being a smart ass - is there a finite quantity of steel in the world?

There is plenty of iron but the alloys that make it into steel, then tool steels are getting hard to come by.

Recycle gives us plenty of iron/mild steel base but it takes the other elements to alloy steel into usable structural or tool steels.

For example, firearms barrels have to have some molybdenum and chromium to be strong enough to stand up to the pressures generated by modern powders.

These alloys are among the ones getting hard to find.

twil13 · 03-18-2005, 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

it sounds like you think it is fine, as long as the US is making the rules?

There are many who say this about us.

Nuclear non-proliferation and human rights are also products of globalization, are they not?

Do you believe that the US is a "bad guy", or are we really trying to help? I would say that overall we try to do good, although there are necessary evils in every action that we take. What tends to happen is many of the side effects of making the world a better place are blown out of proportion to look horrendous, when in fact they may just be a minute part of what is really happening. I believe that the idea of nuclear non-proliferation has stemmed off of globalization. Because globalization, many countries can and do have access to nuclear materials, but I believe that many of these nations have proven that they aren't "mature" enough to handle them. I guess I don't know what you mean by human rights being a product of globalization, since I view them as an idealogy of society.

Tony

jatx · 03-18-2005, 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

I'm not being a smart ass - is there a finite quantity of steel in the world?

For all practical purposes, the supply of raw materials needed to produce steel is infinite. However, at any given time, our capacity to extract and process those materials is limited by the time and capital investment required to upgrade our production infrastructure. The steel production market is not like, say, electricity - where peaker plants can be switched on quickly to take advantage of price spikes with a more expensive production technique.

We will not run out of steel, but we may very likely exit the business of producing it in the same quantities if anti-dumping and other protections are weakened. How you feel about that is another matter.

EDIT: Bill, your point about secondary inputs is well taken.

NousDefionsDoc · 03-18-2005, 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Harsey

There is plenty of iron but the alloys that make it into steel, then tool steels are getting hard to come by.

Recycle gives us plenty of iron/mild steel base but it takes the other elements to alloy steel into usable structural or tool steels.

For example, firearms barrels have to have some molybdenum and chromium to be strong enough to stand up to the pressures generated by modern powders.

These alloys are among the ones getting hard to find.

Thank you. I honestly had no idea.

**Bill Harsey** · 03-18-2005, 11:33

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Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

Thank you. I honestly had no idea.

I wouldn't either except my day job involves occasionally meeting with the guys who make this stuff.

NousDefionsDoc · 03-18-2005, 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by twil13

Do you believe that the US is a "bad guy", or are we really trying to help? I would say that overall we try to do good, although there are necessary evils in every action that we take. What tends to happen is many of the side effects of making the world a better place are blown out of proportion to look horrendous, when in fact they may just be a minute part of what is really happening. I believe that the idea of nuclear non-proliferation has stemmed off of globalization. Because globalization, many countries can and do have access to nuclear materials, but I believe that many of these nations have proven that they aren't "mature" enough to handle them. I guess I don't know what you mean by human rights being a product of globalization, since I view them as an idealogy of society.

Tony

Trying to do good and actually doing good can be two very different things.

Human rights, do you think our grandfathers cared or even knew about genocide in Africa 70 years ago? When the world is a smaller place because of communications, it is much harder to hide things like that. Since the advent of the internet and the pajamahadeen, it has became practically impossible for a dissident of any name to be "disappeared". The court of public opinion is much more an issue now than it was even a few years ago, all because of connectivity. Aid is now dependent on compliance with HR measures, etc.

NousDefionsDoc · 03-18-2005, 11:42

Ok, so what do we do about it? Do we somehow stop China from growing? Somehow get them to revert back to what they were? Stop selling them steel and force all our "partners" to do the same?

Or perhaps we implement a policy of isolationism and keep all our for us?

And we could do the same with oil...oh wait, no we can't.

I think we get into trouble when we start doing things like this. Some countries can get away with it and nobody cares - we can't.

Again, look at the countries where we have had to deploy troops since the fall of the USSR. What do they have in common?

twil13 · 03-18-2005, 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

Ok, so what do we do about it? Do we somehow stop China from growing? Somehow get them to revert back to what they were? Stop selling them steel and force all our "partners" to do the same?

Or perhaps we implement a policy of isolationism and keep all our for us?

And we could do the same with oil...oh wait, no we can't.

I think we get into trouble when we start doing things like this. Some countries can get away with it and nobody cares - we can't.

Again, look at the countries where we have had to deploy troops since the fall of the USSR. What do they have in common?

This is a good point. With our current oil consumption, there is no way we can be self sufficient. China can't either, but they seem to be aligning themselves for long term relationships with large oil producing countries, and these are countries that we don't think to highly of. I think that that is a scary thought. Chavez seems a little crazy with the remarks he has said lately.

Isolation won't work, and there is no way to stop China from growing. Keeping good diplomatic relations is about the only way to keep our trade relations going, but there seems to be so many people with an anti-American train-of-thought

If in say 15-20 years, the US becomes obsolete as far as maintaining the economies of other nations and they can now rely on China. What happens then? We find ourselves on the "bad" side of globalization. Now I doubt that something like this would happen, but there is so much anti-American BS out there these days, that it wouldn't surprise me if there was a major attempt to take us out of the position of super power.

Just my thoughts.

Tony

boat guy · 03-18-2005, 12:58

While this thread may give rise to a million viewpoints, I will try and be brief and stay on track of security.
The United States may be one of few nations that could possibly become isolationist. By that I mean fully self reliant requiring no import or export to survive.
Given the size of our oil reserves we very feasibly could become isolationist and with the advent of alternative fuels make the switch without skipping a beat.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/p...e_Reserves.htm

True Isolationism however has not worked for any country for any length of time and would pose a definite problem for our chosen way of life.

Instead, we must promote our way of life for the world. While it may be argued that there is nearly no alturistic act, short of diving on a grenade to save fellows, we are in the business of promoting global peace and freedom. Many of our actions as a nation may have had arguably negative consequences, but our motives are in the right place...In order to maintain our freedom and way of life, others must enjoy similar freedom and prosperity.

Our own security here relies ever more so upon global stability. As RL pointed out, globalization has ensured that distance is no longer a defense. Until all nations have some form of freedom and relative prosperity we will continue to be both the subject of praise and scorn.

twil13 · 03-18-2005, 14:19

The US uses 20million barrels of oil a day, and that is increasing by 500k each day. IF we only used 20 million a day, and we had no increasing needs for oil, then the reserve alone would last for a little over 27 years. The thing is, it is a reserve and not a main supply. We don't have a main supply big enough to sustain everything here. If we isolated ourselves, our oil use would increase a lot due to the fact that we would have to produce so many more things for our survival. Maybe after we tap ANWR we may find there is much more oil there than once thought. I don't want to be isolated anyways, I like imported goods.

Tony

CommoGeek · 03-18-2005, 14:45

We tried that with another Asian country some years ago and the result was a bad movie starring Ben Affleck.

To me the problem is one of labor: we're exporting critical job skills to China and elsewhere and should we ever need to be isolationist or have another WWII type manufacturing moment we will not have the trained craftsmen to make that happen. Resources are a moot point if no one can build anything with them.

To your last question: not much of an economy (though some have the resources), internal dissent, they were isolationist, and Muslims.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

Ok, so what do we do about it? Do we somehow stop China from growing? Somehow get them to revert back to what they were? Stop selling them steel and force all our "partners" to do the same?

Or perhaps we implement a policy of isolationism and keep all our for us?

And we could do the same with oil...oh wait, no we can't.

I think we get into trouble when we start doing things like this. Some countries can get away with it and nobody cares - we can't.

Again, look at the countries where we have had to deploy troops since the fall of the USSR. What do they have in common?

**Bill Harsey** · 03-18-2005, 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by CommoGeek

To me the problem is one of labor: we're exporting critical job skills to China and elsewhere...

We are training other nations how to kick our ass in the world economy.
Is this the right thing to do?

Edited to add this,
I've never thought even once about being isolationist and that was not my direction of thought.

Second question, if some other country makes everything you need, could that cause other serious problems?

NousDefionsDoc · 03-18-2005, 15:58

Quote:

we're exporting critical job skills to China and elsewhere and should we ever need to be isolationist or have another WWII type manufacturing moment we will not have the trained craftsmen to make that happen.

I'm sorry, but I simply do not believe this is happening in numbers large enough to impact the US. There is no shortage of anything that I can see in the US. I think this is alarmist and based on something other than hard data. I'm not accusing you, I think you are simply repeating what someone else has said.

How do you export a skill set? What skills sets are we losing? If I train a Chinese soldier to fire a pistol, does that mean I can no longer fore my own?

Are you talking about the tech jobs going to Asia? What exactly are we losing iin such numbers that we will cease to function?