The Attempted Pussification of Our Armed Forces. - Page 2

Hooahman · 02-20-2005, 06:11

Even though in my post here I told a funny story about a "Recruit" being laughed at for getting scared about his head going under water. and the Instructors laughing about it. The ENTIRE week we had sea training we were told alot of s**t and ALOT of s**t happend. BUT!! when it came down to it the Instuctors were at your side in a flash! and in the 5th week is "BASIC WATER SURVIVAL" he was still learning to use his uniform as a flotation device.

I dont know what happened. but I will bank its nothing to do with the Corps.

Sometimes its just too late to tell. We had people try to push it too far and pass out and there are so many recruits in the water its hard to tell. When somepne was pulled out they had 2 corpsmen on 'em and the EMT's were'nt far behind.

The Navy and the Marines take water training SERIOUS its no joke. Just too bad sometimes this happens

I DO NOT IN ANYWAY THINK THIS WAS INTENTIONAL! even tho what the "News" shows.

Just my .02

boat guy · 02-28-2005, 08:07

While I agree with those opinions in this thread, that there are serious ramifications for the "pussification" of our military training forums, there are some things which I believe need addressing.
No matter how you slice it the USMC stepped on their crank. They did so on television and with a Commissioned Officer present. Barring policy, barring the stupidity of the recruit, barring any prevailing idea that the laying on of hands can give positive results, THE INSTRUCTOR SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER THAN TO TOUCH A RECRUIT WITH A CAMERA AT HIS BACK. USMC DIs are professionals, they are instructors and they know that they are not to touch recruits. It was sheer stupidity that led to this dilemna.
The simple fact is that recruits are not to be touched. It may be argued that this policy is leading to a softer product. This, however, is the policy. Furthermore, the success of the USMC in combat over the past three years would certainly be evidence that this policy, which has been stringently enforced for more than a decade, has not "pussified" our forces.
Another problem I have with this is that the laying on of hands is normally reserved for douche bags. The USMC does not need the douche bags anyway. That kid had no business being in our business and he should have been released. His father characterized it as such..."I don’t know how they could treat my son the way we saw on that video," says Tharp. "He never hurt nobody. He'd do anything anybody asked him." The USMC has met or exceeded their recruiting quota for many years now. They did not need this dirt bag or any other for whom a rough hand is the only effective training tool.

I agree that the IMBEDS are a bad idea. I agree that a closed door policy would be the best answer for all miltary training. I know that we are mongrel warfighters not fit for public scrutiny.

I do believe that we are smarter than the enemy. And like all of our enemies the media and the liberal pole smoking politicians like that Sen from WV should not be privvy to our tactics. We must be shrewd and unfailing if we are to retain any autonomy. No more should we show the media the brutal side of training, than we should show the enemy our plan of intended movement. The USMC violated that opsec and they will pay. Right or Wrong.

QRQ 30 · 02-28-2005, 09:33

Boat Guy says:

Quote:

No matter how you slice it the USMC stepped on their crank. They did so on television and with a Commissioned Officer present. Barring policy, barring the stupidity of the recruit, barring any prevailing idea that the laying on of hands can give positive results, THE INSTRUCTOR SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER THAN TO TOUCH A RECRUIT WITH A CAMERA AT HIS BACK. USMC DIs are professionals, they are instructors and they know that they are not to touch recruits. It was sheer stupidity that led to this dilemna.

Unwittingly you make my point which is: The USMC did not step on their crank. An Officer and an instructor stepped on their cranks. That is my point, people tend to make a blanket condemnation rather than assign blame where blame is due.

If this were a Marine policy it would be more common place. Instructors, and ossifers, especially new ones occasuibally get out of control. I will say again: the Marine Corps is very capable of policing itself without the help of the media.

**The Reaper** · 02-28-2005, 09:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by QRQ 30

Boat Guy says:

Unwittingly you make my point which is: The USMC did not step on their crank. An Officer and an instructor stepped on their cranks. That is my point, people tend to make a blanket condemnation rather than assign blame where blame is due.

If this were a Marine policy it would be more common place. Instructors, and ossifers, especially new ones occasuibally get out of control. I will say again: the Marine Corps is very capable of policing itself without the help of the media.

Agreed.

By the time the media launched its "investigation" into the incidents at Abu Graib, that Army had already completed one 15-6 investigation, an IG investigation, and has started on the investigation of criminal charges against specific individuals. The media brought nothing but bad reporting and a black eye.

Despite their desire to be the "watchdogs", the media's record of self-policing appears to be significantly worse than the military's. They just happen to have the cameras, recorders, and air time.

I am sure that the Corps will do the right thing in this case, whether the press is involved or not.

If the unethical actions of a rogue reporter who makes up stories or pursues a personal agenda are not reflective of decay in the entire organization, how can the actions of a Marine who had a bad day reflect negatively on the entire Corps?

Who watches the watchers?

Think about it.

TR

QRQ 30 · 02-28-2005, 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Agreed.

By the time the media launched its "investigation" into the incidents at Abu Graib, that Army had already completed one 15-6 investigation, an IG investigation, and has started on the investigation of criminal charges against specific individuals. The media brought nothing but bad reporting and a black eye.

Despite their desire to be the "watchdogs", the media's record of self-policing appears to be significantly worse than the military's. They just happen to have the cameras, recorders, and air time.

I am sure that the Corps will do the right thing in this case, whether the press is involved or not.

TR

I was getting a SIRIUS radio installed and watching TV while waiting one day last week. They were interviewing either Barry Bonds or Jose Conseco. One of them said that the Press needs to pay more attention to their own problems.

boat guy · 02-28-2005, 11:16

QRQ,
I truly appreciate your stance. Nothing in my statement was "unwittingly in agreement." I agree whole heartedly that those responsible should be held accountable. My point is not that the Corps is incapable of conducting their own investigation. Nor is my point that we need a watchdog. Quite the opposite.

I was attempting to illustrate that each individual's actions affect not only themselves but their entire service. In allowing that episode to be filmed that "ossifer" and the DI blemished the USMC reputation in the public eye. TR's signature says this more poignantly than I perhaps have.

"On a night in mid-October 2001, 11 members of an A-detachment from the 5th SF Group dropped into a valley deep inside Taliban territory in central Afghanistan....Gentlemen, every man on that team was carrying America's foreign policy on his shoulders, and that's one hell of a responsibility." - CWO3 Charles E. Simmons, U.S. Army SF

Because we are a new military... Because we have extended validity to media probes... Because we have adopted policies which are in conflict with the establishment of good order and discipline in my opinion. We must act accordingly at least on camera. It's like saying F@CK in front of your mother. It cannot be taken back. Each of us have a responsibility, no matter how small or large. When we screw up it will be caught, and if its caught on tape stand by. We will all in some way or another pay the man. Hope I am more clear this time. I am not opposed to what you believe, just had to caveat with my own HO.

**Pete** · 02-28-2005, 12:42

There are a lot thoughts twisted through all the posts on this thread. The two biggest are Peacetime vs Wartime.

The one who will come out on the short end of the stick will be the grunt in the front lines. He has to make the quick call about shoot or not. I feel for the young troops on the front lines around the world today.

In Terry's day he was at war there were no cameras following him around. He never had to worry about what he did being splashed on the front page of national papers.

My day was the day of "Zero Defects". In peacetime the military threw away may good soldiers based on one small mistake.

I think because of the press we now have the "Zero Defects War". The smallest slip and the long knifes come out.

The troops on the front line are doing the best they can. They don't need to be worried that their action taken in a split second will be disected for hours on end by some do-gooder looking to make a name for him-self.

Of course, this is just my opinion. There are many who post here that feel the same way but could find much better words to express themselves.

Pete
In my day I though High-Tec gear was getting a pair of Herman Survivors.

CPTAUSRET · 02-28-2005, 13:35

"In Terry's day he was at war there were no cameras following him around. He never had to worry about what he did being splashed on the front page of national papers."

Pete:

I realize you are referring to Terry D., but I will totally agree with you re the media in the face of todays troops.

Thank God my gunships did not have gun cameras.

Terry

AngelsSix · 03-01-2005, 23:08

I am going to stick my snout in here for a second....if the guys don't know how to survive in a pool what happens in open water??

It was that question that my instructor asked us every day (in the water)......"what ARE you going to do??? DROWN??"

I wasn't there, but I am sure that things were skewed by the media just like we have found in Kuwait and Iraq.

The American public loves DRAMA!!