Army drill sergeants suspended in sex assault probe...

[RichL025]

Not a DS or basic training story, but related...

I went to PLDC in 91 at Bragg - division was in the sandbox waiting for the first Gulf War to start, so the only PLDC students were the ass-and-trash from 18th Corps, and a handful of pre-Q course guys like myself.

Because we were the only things close to real soldiers, the PLDC cadre kind of confided in us pre-Q course people - they were mostly 11Bs from division, and aside from a few Old Guard guys, us pre-Q course people were the only combat arms types around...

One night one of the cadre grabbed me to accompany him as he was doing his nighttime rounds (he was kind of a wannabe who tried to suck up to all of us pre-Q course guys, but whatever...). He told me to look through the window into the female's barracks (yeah, not appropriate, but still, this guy was one of my cadre, so OK...). It was January in Ft. Bragg, so pretty cold, all the female soldiers were snug under their OD blankets, right?

Then we entered the barracks with a loud "Man on the floor!" as I guess was required. Wouldn't ya know, as we walked down the hall of the open-bay barracks there were all sorts of legs, breasts and asses sticking out of the covers, despite the 50 degree weather.

While I have worked with many female soldiers for whom I have the utmost respect, there is a certain "regression" to pretty basal behavior in settings like basic & PLDC. Damn sure those DS should have known better, but I'll bet that some of them were ensnared in traps of female privates who knew exactly what they were doing....

[mojaveman]

While I was attending basic and AIT at McClellan to become an MP we had one female Drill Sergeant in the company who used to walk through the barracks at night while we were sleeping. Being that there were no female recruits in our company during that cycle I thought it was a little different. I'm sure she got an eyeful too.

[rsdengler]

Originally Posted by RichL025

Not a DS or basic training story, but related...


While I have worked with many female soldiers for whom I have the utmost respect, there is a certain "regression" to pretty basal behavior in settings like basic & PLDC. Damn sure those DS should have known better, but I'll bet that some of them were ensnared in traps of female privates who knew exactly what they were doing....

Exactly, there is truth to that statement " but I'll bet that some of them were ensnared in traps of female privates who knew exactly what they were doing"

Believe me, speaking as a woman we know how to set the snare on the male gender. And I do think there are instances that the DS do over step their bounds and should know the consequences, women do "conjure up the black magic and the come hither expression". HOOKED..... But I won't give away all my secrets....LOL

[Team Sergeant]

This will soon end as Amazon will be marketing "RoboDrillSergeants". Until then, it's never going to end.

That said abusing your authority should be met will prison time.

(Unless you're bill clinton, then it's OK.)

[RichL025]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

This will soon end as Amazon will be marketing "RoboDrillSergeants". Until then, it's never going to end.

That said abusing your authority should be met will prison time.

(Unless you're bill clinton, then it's OK.)

Yes, during Bill Clinton's tenure, the first female to qualify as a B52 pilot was fired due to inappropriate sexual relations with the husband of one of her subordinates.

The Pentagon said (with no irony whatsoever) that if a person has operation control of nuclear weapons, they are held to a higher moral standard...

[Badger52]

Given the previous pontificating about full gender-integration (branch/mission/full-spectrum battlefield requirements be damned, because "my feewings!"), it sounds like things are going according to plan.

As JimP points out, "someone" will get fried but, by God, that internal controls checklist will look damned spiffy.

[miclo18d]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

This will soon end as Amazon will be marketing "RoboDrillSergeants". Until then, it's never going to end.

That said abusing your authority should be met will prison time.

(Unless you're bill clinton, then it's OK.)

TS you never went to midnight showings of Heavy Metal when you were a kid? Robots are coming out as better sex than the real thing now!

Regret is not rape; forcing sex is rape. One is a life lesson the other should be a prison sentence.

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by 35NCO

It got to a point where I would not even acknowledge their precence unless they had a battle and I had a battle too. Miserable time. Very easy to have you career ruined by some kid male/female/whatever just because you annoyed them.

Brings back memory of mixed gender training. I was very vigilant and did just what you and sfshooter wrote. I kept everything in professional setting, to include with one attractive and "attentive" female. One day I found myself in hall way with no one else around. She entered the hall way. I kept 3ft distance. Out of nowhere she closed in, shoved me to the floor, smirked and walked away. It was surreal (should have better peripheral awareness). Before I found permanent housing at Bragg, she offered me to stay at her place. Needless to say, I made stuff up to wiggle out of the invitation.

Originally Posted by sfshooter

Consensual gets the DS busted too. The trainee would get a slap on the wrist. A DS or any other Army instructor, whether civilian or military, must have absolutely no sexual escapades with students. The instructor is at fault.

Rightfully so. Abuse of authority is a clear line (except if you're Bill Clinton).
One of the O in my unit had consensual episodes with lower enlisted down range (not that uncommon). Well, he evoked the "hell hath no fury..." from the lass. His promotion list got cancelled and he received a permanent flag. While she may be textbook fill-in-the-blank, what did he expect really

Even in liberal Europe, physical relationship between the subject and his/her figure of authority is no go.

Originally Posted by miclo18d

Regret is not rape; forcing sex is rape. One is a life lesson the other should be a prison sentence.

After doing so many sexual assault kit, I submit that throw alcohol to the mix, power dynamic, and current culture, and it's all gray. I've come to the point where I tell both alleged victim and alleged perpetrator I believe both of them and I just stick to the forensic facts.

[miclo18d]

Originally Posted by frostfire

After doing so many sexual assault kit, I submit that throw alcohol to the mix, power dynamic, and current culture, and it's all gray. I've come to the point where I tell both alleged victim and alleged perpetrator I believe both of them and I just stick to the forensic facts.

Grey area, absolutely.

Forensics can only tell you that sexual contact happened. Rape is determined by forcible penetration that can show trauma to labia and mons. The fact that sexual contact happened does not prove rape.

Again, regret is not rape. If two people get drunk and decide to bump uglies. That is again a life lesson. Both parties may regret the decision, not just the female. Oops, an 18-20 year child support payment isn't the most fun thing. Nor is herpaghonnasyphilaids.

On the subject of leader/subordinate, boss/employee, instructor/student, person of authority/powerless, any relationship here is inappropriately unethical and should be avoided. I was in an MI Bn and saw it happen all the time. Stories of teachers with students, cops with detained persons, employers hitting on employees, etc. the person of power is always wrong and should receive punishment and/or charged with a crime, depending on level of authority to do so.

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by miclo18d

Grey area, absolutely.

Forensics can only tell you that sexual contact happened. Rape is determined by forcible penetration that can show trauma to labia and mons. The fact that sexual contact happened does not prove rape.

Again, regret is not rape. If two people get drunk and decide to bump uglies. That is again a life lesson. Both parties may regret the decision, not just the female. Oops, an 18-20 year child support payment isn't the most fun thing. Nor is herpaghonnasyphilaids.

On the subject of leader/subordinate, boss/employee, instructor/student, person of authority/powerless, any relationship here is inappropriately unethical and should be avoided. I was in an MI Bn and saw it happen all the time. Stories of teachers with students, cops with detained persons, employers hitting on employees, etc. the person of power is always wrong and should receive punishment and/or charged with a crime, depending on level of authority to do so.

Concur. However, just need to clarify:

The crux of rape is consent, then in various states it breaks down to which body part penetrating which part. People have rough consensual sex all the time resulting in all kinds of trauma. Conversely, because of alcohol, state of arousal, anatomical features, etc. rape can leave no sign of trauma whatsoever. A little TMI, but well-estrogenized hymen and introitus can be very robust. Seen it too many times. That's why often after being so calm the alleged victims broke down when you told them no abrasion, tear, lac, bruising etc. because suddenly they think no one would believe them.

But yes, the worst an alleged perpetrator can do is say I didn't do it and then the kit shows DNA. If he or she say it was consensual, the kit is practically useless.

Yes, all shades of gray indeed.

IMHOO, prevention is key i.e. Mike Pence/Billy Graham rule but the social experiment in the last few years is anything but preventive