New Army (rifle) marksmanship manual

[Team Sergeant]

I spent 20 years in, infantry and SF and have spent more time with an M16/M4 than most. I've fired the weapon with the mag touching the ground, it bounces and the lesson was learned.

Yeah, you might get a first round hit but subsequent shots from that position will produce nothing but a bouncing weapon. And as I've said that's ok if you're just slinging lead. And if you're holding it so tight as to reduce the bouncing, well you've just defeated the purpose of accurate firing.

As an SF sniper I held the weapon as light as possible while firing and it did the trick, especially for the long shots. And the reason for the very light triggers.

I've never stopped learning, outshoot me and I will watch and learn. But you're not going to outshoot me with a weapon bouncing off the ground.

And I'll happily go head to head with anyone that desires to fire a weapon with the mag resting on the ground for accuracy.

[Joker]

This should be in the Comedy Zone.

[Papa Zero Three]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

I spent 20 years in, infantry and SF and have spent more time with an M16/M4 than most. I've fired the weapon with the mag touching the ground, it bounces and the lesson was learned.

Yeah, you might get a first round hit but subsequent shots from that position will produce nothing but a bouncing weapon. And as I've said that's ok if you're just slinging lead. And if you're holding it so tight as to reduce the bouncing, well you've just defeated the purpose of accurate firing.

As an SF sniper I held the weapon as light as possible while firing and it did the trick, especially for the long shots. And the reason for the very light triggers.

I've never stopped learning, outshoot me and I will watch and learn. But you're not going to outshoot me with a weapon bouncing off the ground.

And I'll happily go head to head with anyone that desires to fire a weapon with the mag resting on the ground for accuracy.

Just out of curiosity, did you watch this video at all?

https://youtu.be/IcBGtoH_uSc


You can see how much the weapon moves between rapid fire shots as well as the target he is hitting consistently. I don't know why you keep referencing sniping when we are talking about an M4 and the max distance on a qual range for a soldier is the 300 meter E type/Ivan target. Conventional soldiers are using this technique on the pop up qual ranges and are able to score higher than soldiers who don't do it. When you start them off with the mag on the ground when they zero at 25m, it's not unusual to see groups where all the rounds are touching or will fit under a quarter. This technique helps soldiers out and is effective. As a sniper, you should know that anything that makes the gun and the shooter more stable is a plus.

I challenge you to go out and try it for yourself. Do 1ea 30 round mag prone unsupported, mag not on the ground for 10 shot groups at 25ms. Then do 1ea mag prone unsupported WITH the mag resting on the ground for the same 10 shot groups . I will bet you the 60 rounds of ammo that your groups with the mag on the ground are all tighter than the other groups where you didn't use the magazine for support. And if for some crazy reason that doesn't happen, I will drive over to your apartment and hand you the 60 rounds along with a 12 pack of Guinness, 2ea steaks and a gift certificate for free attendance to the next rifle/carbine course I run.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Papa Zero Three

Just out of curiosity, did you watch this video at all?

https://youtu.be/IcBGtoH_uSc

LOL, first off the mag in that video is "not" on the ground. (I started laughing as soon as I saw him, the gun and the cloth.)

Second we don't have a clue how much cloth it's sitting on or how much straw is under it. When I employed the sniper rifle I always tried to sit it on some sort of cloth, be it a woobie, a hat, a rucksack etc. instead of the ground. The cloth ensured it didn't jump and it stayed in place for the subsequent shots.

We can agree to disagree, but I don't think you're going to find "trained" snipers (and not a 2-3 day police marksmanship course) that would be willing to shoot like the joker in that video. Let's see him do the same thing on a hard ground, say rocks and such or a sidewalk or street, "without the cloth".

He's "busted" no myths, especially shooting myths.

(And I live in a house that I own.....)

[turboprop]

Originally Posted by Joker

This should be in the Comedy Zone.

x2

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by Papa Zero Three

Just out of curiosity, did you watch this video at all?

https://youtu.be/IcBGtoH_uSc

----.

Concur. The times, they do be a changing. When shooting a carbine (M4/M4gery) not only am I putting the magazine on the ground, I'm loading it just like I would a bipod on my precision rifle. And when I'm out playing silly "gun games" I'm choosing between 20, 30, and 40 round magazines to get maximum advantage (my neck doesn't flex the way it used to when I was 20). And that's to rapidly hit 3 MOA targets out to 300+ (carbine appropriate ranges). I also crush and dispose of bad magazines - believe it or not they're supposed to be expendable/disposable.

Side note - SF's current M4A1s are spec'd to have DD free-float handguards. Barrel harmonics and shifting POI are no longer the problem they used to be. Unfortunately, because Mother Army is still supplying the barrels (P2 vs. P11 money), they have the standard front sight assy which is dorky as hell poking up from the middle of the handguard.

Lots of older "wisdom" that has been rendered obsolete by lessons learned in the last 15 years of continuous combat. I'm just fortunate by the nature of my current job to be able to follow the changes (and adopt the ones I like) as they're being debated, validated, and implemented.

[Papa Zero Three]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

LOL, first off the mag in that video is "not" on the ground. (I started laughing as soon as I saw him, the gun and the cloth.)

Second we don't have a clue how much cloth it's sitting on or how much straw is under it. When I employed the sniper rifle I always tried to sit it on some sort of cloth, be it a woobie, a hat, a rucksack etc. instead of the ground. The cloth ensured it didn't jump and it stayed in place for the subsequent shots.

We can agree to disagree, but I don't think you're going to find "trained" snipers (and not a 2-3 day police marksmanship course) that would be willing to shoot like the joker in that video. Let's see him do the same thing on a hard ground, say rocks and such or a sidewalk or street, "without the cloth".

He's "busted" no myths, especially shooting myths.

(And I live in a house that I own.....)

Are you seriously going to question the cloth and the ground under it? OK, well then, as was posted on page #1, here is another video from the 2015 armed forces skill at arms meeting showing US and foreign soldiers shooting M4s and placing the magazine on the ground. How do you explain this? Did they all miss? If it doesn't work, why are so many of them doing it? You can rationalize all you want, it won't change the facts that this does work.

https://youtu.be/3rXykqvVHmk


I attended SOTIC, I teach precision rifle courses and I shoot my M4 prone unsupported with the magazine on the ground, as do others, because it works, I promise.

Congrats on the house. Last time we linked up you were in an Apartment, not counting the BBQ Get together you had at old boys house a while back.

So are you going to accept the 60 round challenge I proposed above?

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Papa Zero Three

So are you going to accept the 60 round challenge I proposed above?

Sure, we'll fire from a concrete sidewalk, 300m targets and we'll see who engages faster.

[Papa Zero Three]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

Sure, we'll fire from a concrete sidewalk, 300m targets and we'll see who engages faster.

Wait a second, you were all about accuracy a few posts above, now you are about speed. Which is it? It doesn't matter what surface you choose. You can do it on the concrete pad at the range and then do it in the gravel dirt right in front of the concrete pad, the results will be the same.

But more importantly, this topic is about a person, 1ea, using a technique (placing mag on the ground), that improves THEIR shooting performance, it's not a "versus" or a competition between people. Which is why I challenged you to go out, on your own and try both techniques and see for yourself and come to your own intelligent and facts based conclusion.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Papa Zero Three

Wait a second, you were all about accuracy a few posts above, now you are about speed.

Sorry, but accuracy and speed are like peanut butter and jelly, they go together. Ever see a three gun guy walking through the course?

Backing down?

[Team Sergeant]

I've been watching these shooting styles trending the last decade too, you teaching any of them?

[Papa Zero Three]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

Sorry, but accuracy and speed are like peanut butter and jelly, they go together. Ever see a three gun guy walking through the course?

Backing down?

No, not at all. But it seems like you are flip flopping on what it is YOUR argument is against mag on the ground.

Lets put this back into perspective a bit. The target audience here is the average, conventional soldier. Using this method, mag on the ground, the "average" conventional soldier is able to engage pop up targets on the standard Army qualification range and achieve higher scores. That in itself is indicative of a valid technique and balance of accuracy and speed. Your argument against it is moot, you are just being obstinate in admitting that the "Old Sarge" urban legend that it causes malfunctions has been proven to be invalid.

[Leozinho]

I thought we were discussing whether the mag on the ground caused malfunctions and hurt accuracy by disrupting barrel harmonics.

Now the argument has shifted to mags on the ground is a bad idea because it slows down follow up shots due to recoil hop??? (but apparently only when placed on concrete.)

[Tuukka]

If talking about shooting fast and accurately, especially from harder surfaces also?

Why do IPSC rifle shooters in the Standard class shoot from a magazine rest vs. mag off the ground?

Gives to a much more stable platform and less recoil.

But what do I know, I am an Open class shooter with bipod..

( Been on the National IPSC Open rifle team though almost every season since 2009 and seen plenty of Standard shooters also )

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by Tuukka

If talking about shooting fast and accurately, especially from harder surfaces also?

Why do IPSC rifle shooters in the Standard class shoot from a magazine rest vs. mag off the ground?

Gives to a much more stable platform and less recoil.

But what do I know, I am an Open class shooter with bipod..

( Been on the National IPSC Open rifle team though almost every season since 2009 and seen plenty of Standard shooters also )

that's right No high speed gear for joes. The manual is geared towards regular joe trying to increase qualification score and being an effective member of fire team. The annual all army small arms championship at Benning has the same purpose. One year, the AMU almost allowed participant to use mag coupler....until some shenanigans showed up with 3 mags coupled together and pretty much shooting from an improvised benchrest! Heck, without strict rule of issue equipment only, I would use this https://www.magpul.com/products/pmag-d60-ar-m4 Same rule apply at AFSAM, AASAM, and similar combat matches all around the world.