Thoughts on Glucosamine and Chondroitin?

[CPTAUSRET]

Originally Posted by Ambush Master

Ditto to this !! I have traveled extensively for the past 30+ years and since I started taking it, I can tell the difference. Also, I started taking MSM in addition, about a year ago, and it has made it work even better !!

Later
Martin

MSM??

Terry

[Ambush Master]

Originally Posted by CPTAUSRET

MSM??

Terry

Damn, this late at night !!!

MSM=Methylsulfonylmethane.

As stated in the disclamer,..............I am not an MD !!!

Later
Martin

[CPTAUSRET]

Originally Posted by Ambush Master

Damn, this late at night !!!

MSM=Methylsulfonylmethane.

As stated in the disclamer,..............I am not an MD !!!

Later
Martin

Cute! Didn't mean to throw you a curve this late.

Roger, this stuff is derived from DMSO, I think.

Terry

[Ambush Master]

Originally Posted by CPTAUSRET

Cute! Didn't mean to throw you a curve this late.

Roger, this stuff is derived from DMSO, I think.

Terry

DMSO, as I understand it, facilitates the "transdermal" absorbtion of whatever is on your hide before or shortly after it's application. Don't think this stuff is quite that radical !!!

[Bill Harsey]

Ambush Master, I take the MSM also for same reason.

small detail but when I had my knee worked on the knee specialist surgeon said it was going to need replacing soon. That was 6 years ago now and it continues to get better, not perfect but much better. Again I can't prove anything but note that like AM, my hands and elbow guit hurting too.

When logging I would on occasion load a full 55 gallon drum of oil from the ground into the back of a pickup by grabbing both rims of the barrel and just picking it up and putting it in.(edit to add- DAMN!! ) I'm surprised I can even move today after doing knucklehead things like that.

I don't dare quit the supplements.

[Bill Harsey]

The drums we used were full of Rimula 30 weight oil for diesel engines.
The lightest would have been hydralic fluid which is a 10 weight oil.

Thanks for posting the chart. Now my back is getting sore.

Originally Posted by Bill Harsey

If my memory serves, these supplements were first proven on horses for whom which the placebo effect is kinda hard to make happen.

...

I should probably stay out of this..... Mr Harsey you are correct.

I have seen Glucosamine and Chondroitin used and the success rate was questionable. Some people swear by it. I think it depends on the degeneration, bone changes, amount of work etc. All of which would apply to a human as well.

Usually we continued to include Aspirin and Phenylbutazone (nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug, no idea the human equiv) and steroid cortozone injections. The use of G&C generally reduced the frequency of injections, but did not eliminate them.

DMSO - I try to avoid using it. A few years ago vets were saying this was a cancer causing agent and it was also connected to blindness. Now it is all the rage in cancer treatment. Generally I only use it for applying steriods and breaking down calcification. Anything mixed with it is absorbed into the bloodstream. I know the local feed store sells more for human use than farm use.....

my .02

[Bill Harsey]

Originally Posted by ghuinness

I should probably stay out of this..... Mr Harsey you are correct.

I have seen Glucosamine and Chondroitin used and the success rate was questionable. Some people swear by it. I think it depends on the degeneration, bone changes, amount of work etc. All of which would apply to a human as well.

Usually we continued to include Aspirin and Phenylbutazone (nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug, no idea the human equiv) and steroid cortozone injections. The use of G&C generally reduced the frequency of injections, but did not eliminate them.

DMSO - I try to avoid using it. A few years ago vets were saying this was a cancer causing agent and it was also connected to blindness. Now it is all the rage in cancer treatment. Generally I only use it for applying steriods and breaking down calcification. Anything mixed with it is absorbed into the bloodstream. I know the local feed store sells more for human use than farm use.....

my .02

Thanks for checking in, What I get from your post is this is complicated science with many factors to consider and measure. I have only one lifetime to work with and am willing to take the chance this stuff works. If I and others are proven wrong maybe the next generation won't have to go thru the same mistakes.

[ccrn]

I dont want to offend anyone here nor is it my intent to dismiss the subjective experience of the vetaran members whos opinions I value.

It is and always will be my intent to question and discriminate without prejudice any treatment , practice, or medication's efficacy. This is essential in nursing which is a practice that should be based on specific and measurable criteria defendable by science, research, and observation.

This is a practice that I carry into my personal life as well as my professionl one. If its not effective or efficient then it should be at least candidate for the chopping block.

A professional example is the Amiodarnone vs Lidocaine debate in the advanced cardiac life support arena. Lidocaine has been the big gun for certain arrhythmias for years. Then along came Amiodarone which was put in favor by the AHA. Their favor was so lop sided that it became a joke. People accused the AHA of being paid off. Now in 2004 their new ACLS recommendations dont necessarily favor amiodarone anymore.In fact the latest research is showing that none of the ACLS medications we are using show efficacy over placebo. Not very comforting is it?

My subjective experience is otherwise. Ive seen these meds save peoples lives in the ER and ICU.. In 2005 AHA will supposedly come out with radical changes in ACLS protocols based upon research.

As far as glucosamine and chondroitin the verdict is still out from my perspect.

Ive seen research that supports it, mostly that done by the manufacturer. Ive seen the 25 horse study that supports glucosamine/chondroitin. It apparently was done via measurable criteria ie lameness grade, flexion test and stride length. However it wasnt a double blind study with a placebo control group and the trainers knew their animals were on the supplement. Also that study involved Cosamine DS and Cosequin which are much stronger than OTC supplements available for human consumption here in the USA so cannot be extrapolated to other glucosamine/chondroitin products. It was for six weeks compared to the six month ARC study.

Speaking of which it is my understanding the studies in the EU involve prescription strength products not the comparitively lower strength OTC supplements available here.

Which leads to another issue. My searching reveals there have been studies of products for human and equine use here in the US and dose strength, consistancy, and impurities are an issue also.

One study claims that neither product is absorbed by the human GI tract, Another claims it is. Yet another claims that only 20% of the product is absorbed at all. If it is in fact absorbed at all how does having an overabundance of a molecule found naturally in the body effect the matrix of cartilage if at all?

Some of the claims of product manufacturers are tainted with studies that involve IM injections as opposed to oral administration, and injections directly into joints. This is all in the fine print to be read freely on product websites.

Much of the manufacturer based research states that their products have regenerative properties. Independent double blind placebo research does not duplicate this at this point to my knowledge. There does appear to be some anti inflammotory properties which in itself would be valuable especially with the inherent hazards of NSAID use.

"As of May 2004, the data from the Glucosamine/Chondroitin Arthritis Intervention Trial (GAIT) were being analyzed, with the results to be published in a peer-reviewed medical or scientific journal." I do not know which one and I dont understand why I have to be careful at all regarding this issue Mr Harsey (respecfully), it might be a peer review by the allopathic medicine community or other scientific body.

My position is that I hope they find out exactly what the actions of glucasamine HCI, glucosamine sulfate, or chondriotin are. At the very least it would be fantastic to know exactly what results are achivied by its therapy. Other medications actions are unkown and so too may be gl/ch. But if its efficacy can be known and side effects as well as complications it would aide persons taking this supplemt as well as other supplents andmedications. At the very least it would be nice to have label regulations applied to both.

The medical community and general population has everything to gain if this can be done-

ccrn

[Bill Harsey]

CCRN, Have you ever had a catastrophic, life changing injury to a major joint or your spine?

[ccrn]

Sir,

No I have not.

As an RN I have worked with many people whom have had major, catastophic, life changing injuries, somtimes of which the most that could be done was to assist in transition to death with dignity and hopefully some amount of comfort ie pain control.

As a healthcare provider I welcome supplements such as Glucosamine and chondroitin if they decrease pain and add to quality of life.

My only issue has been, and will be, some form of disclosure perhaps regulatory label control and therefore level of quality and efficacy. A can of soup is held to no less standard.

I do believe I can grasp your sentiment at least in part, that being those who suffer will reach out even taking risks.

It seems that Glucosamine and chondriotin work to decrease pain in those who suffer osteoarthritis and other debilitating degenerative joint processes. If we can know exactly what forms work, how, and in what dosage then the more efficient they can be administered. This can only be for the better, especialy for those on limited incomes.

My apologies if I offended. I was only trying to add to the conversation not diminish it. I feel it is my obligation to add information to the community in any way I can be it direct experience or points to take into consideration-

Respectfully

(edit grammar)

[DoctorDoom]

x

[CPTAUSRET]

Originally Posted by ccrn

Sir,

I do believe I can grasp your sentiment at least in part, that being those who suffer will reach out even taking risks.

It seems that Glucosamine and chondriotin work to decrease pain in those who suffer osteoarthritis and other debilitating degenerative joint processes. If we can know exactly what forms work, how, and in what dosage then the more efficient they can be administered. This can only be for the better, especialy for those on limited incomes.

My apologies if I offended. I was only trying to add to the conversation not diminish it. I feel it is my obligation to add information to the community in any way I can be it direct experience or points to take into consideration-

Respectfully

(edit grammar)

ccrn:

You didn't offend! I doubt that any of the people you are addressing are so thin skinned as to take offense at your study based beliefs.

You may have read the thread I created re using "piano wire" as suture matrerial during Vietnam. Irregardless, I had several wounds which I was told would result in traumatic arthritis years down the road. I was too young to accept that advice, but I certainly relate at this stage of my life. I went to the VA with significant shoulder pain, I had a difficult time moving my right arm above my head, I was hoping for a diagnosis of Rotator Cuff injury, but after X-rays I was informed that I had Degenerative Joint Disease, bone on bone, no cartilege left. I had to give up Racquetball, but after taking G and C for a goodly portion of time I again was able to play again...I have given up the sport again because of my knees.

Nancy too has led a pretty rugged life resulting in two spinal fusions from I believe, L3 to S something, she too has significant pain, and she firmly believes that G and C helps. All subjective I know, but...

Terry

[Bill Harsey]

I'm just a barely out of the cave knifemaker. I know If I drink too much my head hurts the next morning. If I don't drink, my head doesn't hurt, as much.

If I take the G and C stuff, my knee quits hurting. If I don't take it, my knee hurts.

I'm just a knifemaker, this is all I know.

[The Dave]

Originally Posted by CPTAUSRET

ccrn:

I had to give up Racquetball, but after taking G and C for a goodly portion of time I again was able to play again...I have given up the sport again because of my knees.



Terry

CPTAUSRET,

What kind of dosage are you currently taking? And in what form? Pill, liquid, chewie? I'm just curious. I've been taking 2000mg's in the hard pill form, and I read somewhere that you only get about 65 to 70% of that actually absorbed. I've definitely noticed a difference, thats for sure.