The Freedom Stick - Page 2

x SF med · 04-08-2015, 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakedeep

I've set up a new game-plan after going over the responses...

1. Apply generous amounts of rainbow tape to the PVC pipe.
2. Keep rucking with it.
3. MOVE TO THE SOUTH.

Remove rainbow tape before moving South, unless you move to key West or Asheville.

alelks · 04-09-2015, 20:53

I would have just asked if I was breaking any laws and once he said no, I would have just walked off.

Sorry!

Sheep don't get to determine what I can and can't do if I'm doing it legally. I don't care what their made up fears are.

alelks · 04-10-2015, 07:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

Possible. LE can not stop you or detain you for no reason. Unless he had probable cause etc. You ask, "Have I broken any law" and Am I being detained? "

If the answer is no he can NOT legally do anything. Most people do not know this. Sadly may LE officers that are taught that in the academy forget the basics like that.

Brush Okie is ABSOLUTELY correct and that is EXACTLY what I would have asked him and then walked away. Not going to play the game of him fishing for something. I also do not have to show him any form of ID for the same reason.

JimP · 04-10-2015, 08:01

Not quite accurate. A cop merely needs reasonable articulable suspicion (NOT probable cause) to stop and make an inquiry on/to a prviate individual. You - are for all practical purposes - being detained at that moment for investigatory purposes. The reasonable suspicion and field interview are used to attain "probable cause" that something untoward is afoot which may lead to your seizure via arrest.

Just remember - you may be 100% correct in what your rights may be but that may not defeat the subsequent arrest and ride for failure to comply with LAWFUL orders of a Police officer.

We can argue all day long what lawful orders are - I'm not going to engage.

I am in YOUR guys' corner here. just be careful you don't do something stupid and get yourself shot in the process.

alelks · 04-10-2015, 09:40

Ahhh,

but then he must explain that "reasonable suspicion" then tell me what law he suspects me of breaking if he wants me to hang around. If he can't do that, I'm walking right after I ask him if I'm being detained. If he can't tell me I'm being detained under suspicion of committing a crime he's fishing and I'm not biting.

**The Reaper** · 04-10-2015, 09:51

Lawyer, UP!!

TR

JimP · 04-10-2015, 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by alelks

Ahhh,

but then he must explain that "reasonable suspicion" then tell me what law he suspects me of breaking if he wants me to hang around. If he can't do that, I'm walking right after I ask him if I'm being detained. If he can't tell me I'm being detained under suspicion of committing a crime he's fishing and I'm not biting.

Let me know how that works out for you.

Guy · 04-10-2015, 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimP

Let me know how that works out for you.

I would've have taken a different approach...

I'd run the route three (3) different times a day with Freedom Stick. Every time I was stopped, I'd simply reply "OK" and be back at it again.

JimP · 04-10-2015, 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

Ahh yes very fine but difference between PC and reasonable suspicion. That is why you ask, am I being detained? Also you can throw in am I free to leave? and What law do you suspect I am breaking? Remember LE can not stop you without a reason. In this case carrying a stick of some sort. Is that illegal under the local law? What illegal activity is he investigating? LE HAS to tell you WHY they stopped you. Carrying a stick is not illegal, but having what could be a big pipe bomb gives him a reason.

actually - yes, they CAN stop you for suspicious behavior - it doesn't necessarily have to be patently illegal. Suspicious behavior - at that point - is either in the eye of the officer; or, in the veiw of the complainant. YOUR opinion on what you are doing really isn't relevant AT THAT POINT. For instance, if you are parked behind Piggly-Wiggly next to the dumpster at 0300 in the morning and a cop car drives by, expect to be asked what you are doing. Refusing to answer and attempting to drive away will NOT work out so well for you and I do NOT advise that course of action.

You may NOT be doing anything illegal but to state that they can't question you and that you do NOT have to respond to their lawful (emphasis) orders is not accurate.

That is why suspicious behavior will get you the "field interview". Your responses - or lack thereof - is what may get you detained and/or arrested.

Guys - I am 100% with you on this and concur - but you all don't have quite the rights you all think you have. Again...even if you ARE right in what you claim; or, in your refusal to obey the commands of the officer with regard to THAT PARTICULAR situation, he still has the ability to ruin your day.

I'm in your corner in this and have taken steps to try to educate the police in matters such as these and getting them back to being "Peace officers" by me and a couple buddies writing the book: "Virtuous Policing; Bridging the Gulf Between the Protectors and Those They Serve". We are in final edits with the publisher at present and it will be out this summer.

I'm with ya'll on this but thinking that a cop has to inform you of what laws you broke before he can talk to you is not accurate. This is NOT the military and article 31 rights do NOT apply (the miltary via Article 31 is much more protective of your rights and you DO have to be informed of potential violations and your right NOT to talk). In civil law enforcement, the trigger is custodial interrogation. No cutodial interrogation? No rights advisement.

Guy · 04-10-2015, 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

Ahh yes very fine but difference between PC and reasonable suspicion. That is why you ask, am I being detained? Also you can throw in am I free to leave? and What law do you suspect I am breaking? Remember LE can not stop you without a reason. In this case carrying a stick of some sort. Is that illegal under the local law? What illegal activity is he investigating? LE HAS to tell you WHY they stopped you. Carrying a stick is not illegal, but having what could be a big pipe bomb gives him a reason.

I don't even understand why, when stopped, would any reasonable sane person would even engage in questioning a LEO?

I've been stopped before, went through that question and answer process and ended up cuffed. Nowadays, they probably think I'm blind, deaf & dumb wandering the earth legally.

Streck-Fu · 04-10-2015, 11:05

Quote:

....but you all don't have quite the rights you all think you have.

I applaud your efforts to educate the officers with the goal of them become 'peace' officers. However, if an officer persists in questioning and the only possible charges against a citizen from the situation are related to Failure To Comply, we are stuck in a position where we only have the rights an officer chooses to give us.

JimP · 04-10-2015, 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Streck-Fu

I applaud your efforts to educate the officers with the goal of them become 'peace' officers. However, if an officer persists in questioning and the only possible charges against a citizen from the situation are related to Failure To Comply, we are stuck in a position where we only have the rights an officer chooses to give us.

Therein lies the "rub". i think it is a HUGE education process for law enforcement today. Not everyone is a criminal and not every card game needs to be explosively breached.

I'm with you Streck.

Lionshare · 04-10-2015, 11:42

.

JimP · 04-10-2015, 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

You misunderstood. I did not say before you say anything I said they have to tell you at some point WHY they stopped you. In this case it was because of the sticK and supposed citizen complaints.

Do you remember the time limit set by the courts for a traffic stop? Did you know there is one and what the exceptions are.

I am not advocating being an ads to every LE out there but I have ran into a cop once that was way out of line. Later on he was asked to resign because he was making death threats to his sons ex girlfriend that had beat the he'll out of her. Oh yea he was on duty at the time or should I say several times.

Not arguing with you Okie. The graphic was pretty well done. The only argument I have with it is that if they call a canine to do a cursory inspection of your vehicle you are NOT free to leave. They may detain you for a "reasonable time" (dependent upon the circumstances) while awaiting the canine. the same goes for your hypothetical. They may detain you for a reasonable time to accomplish the reason for the stop.

I believe someone earlier stated they had to tell you what laws were being broken. That is NOT the case - they merely need to tell you what you already stated: "why" they stopped you. It could be as simple as saying "it is a little unusual to be camped out by the dumpster behind piggly-wiggly at 0300 and we wanted to ensure all was Ok". or, "we had a complaint of an individual acting strangely in the park".

I think we are in violent agreement. But even the graphic stated that you don't walk away or fight with them over what you perceive to be a violation....you report it.

Sohei · 04-10-2015, 17:36

I am currently in my 26th year of law enforcement and have never been offended by anyone when they decided to invoke their constitutional right to not speak with me for whatever reason I was speaking with them or when they would ask me what my reason was for stopping or conversing with them. After all...they are involved in the action.

However, I will say that I always appreciated it when they did it in a civilized and polite manner. It simply made it easier to communicate with them. I think many LEO's get upset and angered when they are questioned because they take it "personally" when it isn't. I question people about things so I feel it is only fair that I be questioned about things as well. That's called conversation.

To me...it isn't personal until it's actually...personal...as in hands on personal. Other than that...it doesn't bother me.