An NDD Spin-off Thread

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
I believe that all of my TVs were made in Japan. I've got two JVCs and a Mitsubishi.

Whether equal access to that market is being provided today or not, I don't know.

Gotcha! So this:

I'm happy to buy imported ones as long as the country where they're manufactured gives us equal access to their markets.

should really read: "I'm happy to buy imported ones so long as they're cheaper and I get to keep more of my money." LOL

Human nature. There is a gear manufacturer here that does good, not great but good, work. His claim to fame is that he copies the real deal's work and sells it for a fraction of the price. I have nothing against those that do, but I will never buy anything from him. i have talked to people like eggroll and have a small idea of what it takes to get these products to market. I will not help a guy circumvent the cost to save on the price. I waited 6 months for a pack that I could have gotten locally in a week for half the price. Same thing with drug companies. I have a friend that is head of security for a major. We have talked about what it takes for them to make a profit. I won't buy generic because of it.

Basically, we legislated out way into this mess. Like GH says, we're not competetive. But I don't want to see even one US worker living and working in the conditions I've seen elsewhere. No matter what it takes. We need to raise the rest of the world up, not lower ourselves to their level.

WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Gotcha! So this:



should really read: "I'm happy to buy imported ones so long as they're cheaper and I get to keep more of my money." LOL

Human nature. There is a gear manufacturer here that does good, not great but good, work. His claim to fame is that he copies the real deal's work and sells it for a fraction of the price. I have nothing against those that do, but I will never buy anything from him. i have talked to people like eggroll and have a small idea of what it takes to get these products to market. I will not help a guy circumvent the cost to save on the price. I waited 6 months for a pack that I could have gotten locally in a week for half the price. Same thing with drug companies. I have a friend that is head of security for a major. We have talked about what it takes for them to make a profit. I won't buy generic because of it.

Basically, we legislated out way into this mess. Like GH says, we're not competetive. But I don't want to see even one US worker living and working in the conditions I've seen elsewhere. No matter what it takes. We need to raise the rest of the world up, not lower ourselves to their level.

WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!

Two points:

1. Price is not the only factor I consider in making purchases. I consider lots of things just like you do. I didn't buy these TVs because they were the cheapest; I bought them because I thought they were the best quality for what I was paying. The features were more important to me than the price, in fact. I sometimes buy American just for the sake of buying American, but not when the product is inferior and overpriced. I don't buy French products these days. I often buy brand-name products even though there are cheaper equivalents available, in part for the reasons you describe.

2. How do you propose to improve conditions abroad other than through free trade?

[NousDefionsDoc]

Blasphemer! When is the US product inferior?

I also have Japanese televisions, because I like them and they have better features for the price. But I never said I do it because we have equal access to their markets - we don't.

I'm not against free trade. I wish there was more free trade. I'm talking about US companies exploiting cheap labor overseas for purely profit motives at the expense of the US worker. I don't want to increase tariffs on foreign goods coming in or our going out. I want US companies that move their offices overseasto make more of a profit to pay a penalty for not hiring our workers in order to make a buck.

If a Venezuelan cattle rancher can produce beef that the US consumer will buy for a dollar a pound using Venezuelan cowboys and truckers and butchers - fine.

If Hormel moves their offices to Caracas because they can hire a Venezuelan secretary for 1/10 of the cost of a US secretary - not fine.

See what I mean?

[Sacamuelas]

Your proposal is not worth the risk to me. I don't want ANY more government control over trade.

FWIW, I am already paying for a security system in my house. Already paying for unemployment resources for other Americans AND non-citizens. Already paying for healthcare for these noninsured Americans.

I believe that our workforce should evolve/adapt with the changes in economic conditions that our country experiences. I honestly don't think that most Americans view the job export situation in an honest manner. I am tired of the "keep it like it is" mentality. There should never be a guarantee of keeping a job/benefits for every worker. That is way to close to socialism for my taste.

The media points out that we are losing all the high paying supervisor level technology jobs. I don't believe we are losing ALL of them. I think we are losing the "fat" that was developed in an overly opportunistic accelerated growth period in that sector during the 90's. I think we had a LOT of overpaid people in the technology sector up until recent times. It became expected for people with a simple little four year college degree in IT to expect a starting job with great benefits and a salary of over 90k/year. Unfortunately, the rapid growth led to the naive misconception that the business would be "that good" forever. Sorry Charlie, everyone got into techs because it was a get rich quick occupation.... and people did just that for several years. They should have done their research on the market and its potential for long term stability in it's workforce. I don't want to listen to the whining when the money well runs dry for a few years. They can always become educators( a great profession IMO) or go back to school.

Get an occupation that can’t be done by some uneducated Indian for 1/1000th your salary. If what one can do can be done in a sweat shop, maybe one should reevaluate just how valuable ones services really are. Maybe a paycut to save your job is a good idea. Just my .02

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I also have Japanese televisions, because I like them and they have better features for the price. But I never said I do it because we have equal access to their markets - we don't.

I didn't mean to say that either. I think the government should use the powers at its disposal to ensure that countries that restrict our access to their markets face the same restrictions from us. That's what I meant.

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc

If a Venezuelan cattle rancher can produce beef that the US consumer will buy for a dollar a pound using Venezuelan cowboys and truckers and butchers - fine.

If Hormel moves their offices to Caracas because they can hire a Venezuelan secretary for 1/10 of the cost of a US secretary - not fine.

See what I mean?

I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree. There are costs associated with moving operations overseas, and we'll see how this trend shakes out in the marketplace.

I'm going to go work in a conference room for a while, but I'll be back from time to time tonight.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Well, we don't all have the talent to be dentists.

All I want is a level playing field based on our values. US products get slammed everywhere else. How do we factor in humanity and the strides we made in the last 100 years in protecting our workforce from sweatshop hours, unsafe working conditions, etc. If we can do that, then I'm all for letting the products compete on a quality basis. But I don't see that same protection where I am. I'm not saying Colombia has to have the same minimum wage as the US, there are other factors that impact the cost of living. But in some cases, it is abusive.

I saw a guy fall off a scaffold in Quito a while back. No safety gear. It killed him. They aren't required to wear it, so the employer doesn't provide it. They never missed a beat. Just replaced him and moved on. We used to have that too. We don't now and I don't think we should.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Why do I feel like the Lone Ranger on this thread?

[lrd]

Chinese Workers Pay for Wal-Mart's Low Prices
Retailer Squeezes Its Asian Suppliers to Cut Costs

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2004Feb7.html

This appeared in this morning's Washington Post. Wal-Mart says this benefits both sides. Rationalization?

[Sacamuelas]

My argument stands for "blue collar" as well as "white collar" occupations. I realize that it may seem I am on the other side of the fence concerning my job being lost overseas. However, I face the same consequence (firing and relocation) in other ways. Example:
The current Administration's Government outsourcing proposals. My current job has been identified twice in the last two years for government outsourcing. They looked at my pay/benefits and workload and compared it to the cost of contracting the position out to private companies. I defended my work level/ability/quality of care and won the competition. If they had fired me then I would have moved on. I understand that the idea of keeping the same job for your entire lifetime is a thing of the past. That is our world we live in today, its not the 50's anymore.

My ideas translate to other nondentist fields as well. Ex. There is no economic benefit for companies to hire [u]legal[/i] non citizen workers to come to America and work as shipbuilders. Therefore, shipbuilders have put themselves in a valued occupation. It works for almost all jobs.

[Sacamuelas]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Why do I feel like the Lone Ranger on this thread?

b/c you are the lone socialist in a room of capitalist! LOL

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally posted by Sacamuelas
My argument stands for "blue collar" as well as "white collar" occupations. I realize that it may seem I am on the other side of the fence concerning my job being lost overseas. However, I face the same consequence (firing and relocation) in other ways. Example:
The current Administration's Government outsourcing proposals. My current job has been identified twice in the last two years for government outsourcing. They looked at my pay/benefits and workload and compared it to the cost of contracting the position out to private companies. I defended my work level/ability/quality of care and won the competition. If they had fired me then I would have moved on. I understand that the idea of keeping the same job for your entire lifetime is a thing of the past. That is our world we live in today, its not the 50's anymore.

My ideas translate to other nondentist fields as well. Ex. There is no economic benefit for companies to hire [u]legal[/i] non citizen workers to come to America and work as shipbuilders. Therefore, shipbuilders have put themselves in a valued occupation. It works for almost all jobs.

I understand that. But a couple of things. You are in a protected profession. People trained as dentists in other countries for a fraction of what you paid to put yourself through school have to pass an exam and get a license in order to practice here. Two - most people don't look for the cheapest dentist or doctor or lawyer, they get the one that gives them the most confidence. You are providing services, not producing products so you don't compete with Venezuelan dentists in Venezuela, you don't import dentistry.

Again, I'm not talking about workers coming to the US and taking jobs, I don't think that is nearly as big an issue as some would have us believe.

I'm talking about your shipbuilder moving his shipbuilding operation from the US to Hong Kong to make a bigger profit. Not selling ships to the Chinese, but still selling them to US customers.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally posted by Sacamuelas
b/c you are the lone socialist in a room of capitalist! LOL

More of a nationalist I think, but I'll be a socialist on this issue.

[NousDefionsDoc]

I'll be back, I'm going over to DU.com to recruit some communist libs.

[Gypsy]

Originally posted by Sacamuelas
[B]
The media points out that we are losing all the high paying supervisor level technology jobs. I don't believe we are losing ALL of them. I think we are losing the "fat" that was developed in an overly opportunistic accelerated growth period in that sector during the 90's. I think we had a LOT of overpaid people in the technology sector up until recent times. It became expected for people with a simple little four year college degree in IT to expect a starting job with great benefits and a salary of over 90k/year.

And they also received up to $100K sign on bonuses, free breakfast lunch and dinner, health club memberships etc. Crazy but true. I was doing some tech recruiting, specifically software sales and engineer types, between 1999 and 2001. The fees were fat and as were the salaries so I made a comfortable living. Part of the dot bomb problem as I saw it, just my uneducated opinion mind you and some conversations with people in the field, was that there was such a rush for the get rich quick piece of this pie that often the funders weren't even asking for solid business plans prior to funding a venture. And many of these young hot shots weren't interested in the more experienced work force who understood the value of a business plan, they had their creative visions but not the ability (or patience?) to implement solid business strategies. The burn rate for one company I dealt with was over $800K per month. Per MONTH! Yet....not enough money was coming in to cover their expenses. They were lucky in a way...the "evil" entity known as Microsoft acquired the company but eventually those I dealt with were expendable.

I would be in favor of companies getting additional perks and incentives for keeping the American worker employed, thus keeping the economy moving and growing. My question is what do you do with...as an example...the middle managers in Manufacturing, Distribution or Production who are downsized due to corporate greed? They don't make exhorbitant money, probably on average $50-70K. How about the average Joe working to support his/her family. These people are losing their livelihood thanks to organizations moving operations or production overseas. The market has been flooded with these people, where do they go to find work? If I had a quarter for every person I've spoken with in the past two years that was "downsized" because their company either outsourced operations, was acquired or just closed down I'd be a rich woman.

Edit to add: The burn rate I referred to was for rent, utilities and the like...it did not include salaries.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Right - so we're agreed - gypsy, lrd and I are right and you guys are wrong.

Have a very SF day.