College After SOF: A Rant

[charlietwo]

Originally Posted by WCH

Blake comes across to me as a whiner who thinks the world revolves around him.

I wrote the article.. I understand where guys are coming from saying I sound like a whiner.

I didn't write the article for the sympathy as a 'woe is me' thing. I'm drawing attention to an issue that obviously strikes a nerve with a lot of military veterans... and I did do my research as I wrote the article... but already had the article written as I learned more options I had at my disposal. I felt it was important to post as is.

Up until the other day, I had never heard of the Joint Service Transcript. I learned from a buddy about arguing for getting classes accepted. I've picked up a lot of good advice after the article was posted. Bottom line -- the system is far more difficult than it needs to be. I understand the 'play the game' argument, but most guys simply get fed up after years of the military 'game' and say fuck this. Then they end up drinking themselves stupid and eating pills from the VA rather than driving forward towards a degree.

I'm close to graduating at this point, so I don't have any illusions of helping myself in all of this. If I can help guys down the road avoid classes they're already proficient in so they can get into the real world quicker, I'll again feel like I accomplished something with this article...

Trust me, I'm not easily angered or frustrated, and I don't whine in person. I wouldn't have made it through the X-ray program if I was easily angered, frustrated, or a bitching crybaby. This topic has been a sore spot with me because I recognize the glaring flaws in it and it is simply the first fight I've felt worth fighting in a long time.

If you don't agree with my assessment, so be it. I chose to speak up about it and the emotion I injected into the article seems to have gotten attention on the topic.

If we were talking about the topic in the teamroom would you tell me to quit whining and play the game or would you see value in working towards changing the game?

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Pete

I should go into a little more detail.

1 - It all depends on the school and what they allow. That was one thing I looked at before picking the way I was going to go. Staying in town - going with FTCC first and then transferring to FAY State got me as many credit hours as possible starting out and in the transfer.

2 - Credit hours are funny things because I have something like 140 hours but there are lots in the 010 - 090 range that don't count for diddly squat.

3 - Stuff that counts - I listed something like 30 good credit hours in my post above. Of that only 1 PED credit is being used in my associates degree.

So you have to look at the credits you have and how they fit into the degree you are working toward. If they don't fit the college will not use them.

Yep - what they'll give credit for (earned at another institution, life, work experience, AP, CLEP, EOC, etc) and what they'll waive (e.g., things like PE, language, or some speech requirement or such) are entirely up to each school's admissions/transfer policies, and often vary even more widely within the same college among the individual departments and their degree programs.

Richard

[Trapper John]

C2 - Great post and a very well written article. Reminded me of exactly what I ran into. I tried to get the 4 semster PE credit waived. That was a no go. So I took orienteering (read land navigation) 1 semester. The final was an orienteering course. What a joke- I beat the school record by 1hr 5 minutes.

Same thing with microbiology - tried to place out and it was a no go. Went to the first class and no more, just showed up for the silly assed labs, tests, mid-term and final. Aced the course! The fire-hose method we got in 300F1 really works. (thank you Major Sominex )

My point is that in general you can't fight academic system (it's geared to kids and professors not folks like us), just play the game, have fun with it (many, many opportunities for that), teach those youngsters a thing or two, pick your battles, ruck up, and march on. You will be glad you did.

So C2, are you considering a career as writer?

[SFgrunt]

To me it's apples and oranges. Two very different worlds with very different experience to be gained. This coming from a guy with a BA, then went SF, then a master's program for PA school. Again, two different worlds, there may be a lot of cross-over, but for the most part, different skill sets are needed to navigate each.

There is nothing comparable to the intensity found through SF military training and its real world application. But it's not all encompassing and there is plenty out there in the world of academia to be gained which the Q-course doesn't provide.

One small example is the importance of communication. There are a lot of veterans out there that struggle in college because they lack some of the important research, analytical and writing skills needed to jump the hoops of academia. Grammar is actually important after all. It's something that needs to be learned, just like any skill, it's obtained through practice and application, or as some may refer to it "education".

Now, that being said, my own personal opinion is that our university/college system in this country has gone overboard and is more about milking every penny out of you and less about preparing you for the real world.

My $0.02.

[SF_BHT]

Originally Posted by charlietwo

I wrote the article.. I understand where guys are coming from saying I sound like a whiner.

I didn't write the article for the sympathy as a 'woe is me' thing. I'm drawing attention to an issue that obviously strikes a nerve with a lot of military veterans... and I did do my research as I wrote the article... but already had the article written as I learned more options I had at my disposal. I felt it was important to post as is.

Up until the other day, I had never heard of the Joint Service Transcript. I learned from a buddy about arguing for getting classes accepted. I've picked up a lot of good advice after the article was posted. Bottom line -- the system is far more difficult than it needs to be. I understand the 'play the game' argument, but most guys simply get fed up after years of the military 'game' and say fuck this. Then they end up drinking themselves stupid and eating pills from the VA rather than driving forward towards a degree.

I'm close to graduating at this point, so I don't have any illusions of helping myself in all of this. If I can help guys down the road avoid classes they're already proficient in so they can get into the real world quicker, I'll again feel like I accomplished something with this article...

Trust me, I'm not easily angered or frustrated, and I don't whine in person. I wouldn't have made it through the X-ray program if I was easily angered, frustrated, or a bitching crybaby. This topic has been a sore spot with me because I recognize the glaring flaws in it and it is simply the first fight I've felt worth fighting in a long time.

If you don't agree with my assessment, so be it. I chose to speak up about it and the emotion I injected into the article seems to have gotten attention on the topic.

If we were talking about the topic in the teamroom would you tell me to quit whining and play the game or would you see value in working towards changing the game?

Blake

Wondered if you would chime in. Good article...... You wrote as the process makes you feel. No wining seen here but I hated the process also. University's have no love for giving away any classes no mater what you have already done. They say they support the Vets and professionals with experience until you ask them to put pen to paper and give credit.

[Peregrino]

Academia - one of the original self-licking ice cream cones. Nice commentary C2. The experiences you relate closely match my own. Together, they make for one of the principle reasons I haven't pursued a Master's degree yet - and probably never will.

[Trapper John]

Originally Posted by Peregrino

Academia - one of the original self-licking ice cream cones. Nice commentary C2. The experiences you relate closely match my own. Together, they make for one of the principle reasons I haven't pursued a Master's degree yet - and probably never will.

Illegitimi non carborundum

[Trapper John]

Originally Posted by SF_BHT

Blake

Wondered if you would chime in. Good article...... You wrote as the process makes you feel. No wining seen here but I hated the process also. University's have no love for giving away any classes no mater what you have already done. They say they support the Vets and professionals with experience until you ask them to put pen to paper and give credit.

What SF BHT said, Oh and BTW Blake, we know you are not a whiner.

Frankly, I loved the emotional angle you took on the article. Rang very true to my experience. It's a talent to do what you did in that article. Your frustration and anger was palpable and if the reader didn't feel it too, well then, they must be brain dead. "F'em and the horse they rode in on."

[98G]

Originally Posted by Trapper John

Illegitimi non carborundum

My favorite Lt Kadish!

DLI credits went a long way back in my day. Also had an easier experience transferring credits back then compared to reading this string. Ah, the good old days...

[Mr Furious]

Originally Posted by MtnGoat

One thing that I feel needs to be fixed is the USASFC and USAJFKSWCS to have the SWCS Dept of Ed get with American Council on Education and get credit to guys for what SWCS Teaches.

And there it is. Some courses receive substantial recommended credit, and others receive little to none. I was told it came down to how the plans and foundational documents of a course are written and conveyed upon submission for evaluation. If consistent in taxonomy, form, and language with what is familiar to those evaluating at ACE then it stands a better chance of being well received and granted credit.

[Richard]

War as the new AP?

Vets Want Class Credit For Military Skills

A growing number of military veterans are wondering why they don't get class credit for the skills they acquired in uniform. As their numbers increase with the war in Afghanistan winding down, states are questioning if vets are being deprived of an earned head start.

http://time.com/#87696/military-veterans-education/

Richard

My wife advises non-traditional student (adults returning to college)at a very large state university. At one time, she ran a program that provided off-campus classes at MacDill AFB. She says many times military (active/former/retired) expect to receive credit for what are considered "vocational courses" by the university. No way Jose!

[Flagg]

Does anyone know if the fellas who returned from WWII and used their new GI Bill education benefits received any/much academic credit depending on their training/experience?

[Sigaba]

FWIW, civilians have to jump through many of the same hoops.

For me, the take away is that academics see themselves as the gate keepers to their respective professions and stewards of the reputations of the schools where they work. Within this dual role, I think it is appropriate for academics to exercise their perogatives when it comes to matters of transferring credit from one instittution to another and/or granting credit for experiences gained outside the Ivory Tower.

I understand that many membrs of this BB have a dim view of eggheads and the Ivory Tower. However, I would point out that many of the "rules of the game" that empower academics to regulate what goes on within the Ivory Tower are very similar to those that grant members of the American professions of arms a very high level of autonomy when it comes to the selection, training, and evaluation of their membership. My enduring concern is that certain types of efforts to delegitimize one established profession can be repurposed to delegitimze others.

My $0.02.

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

IMHO my issue with the college system is the extraneous bullshit you have to take for a degree that has noting to do with what you are interested in. Example, nursing degree requires speech, poly sci etc. It is noting more than a money grab by the schools and their excuse is they say you are a more rounded student. Bullshit!. The liberals are always preaching about we need to learn from the Europeans. In Europe your classes are only directly related to your degree no extra crap.

First, were it not for "liberals" drawing from "Europe", promotion in the American army would be based upon seniority.

Second, I think you're over generalizing about nursing programs. A RN I know rather well makes very good use of the "lessons learned" in classes that were not directly related to medicine. This person takes the profession of nursing very seriously and attempts to view every learning opportunity as a training opportunity.

Third, I think you're misinformed IRT how academic institutions generate revenue. For example, during the 2011-2012 academic year, student fees made up about 13% of the University of California at Berkeley's revenue <<LINK>>.

[mojaveman]

Originally Posted by sinjefe

Colleges are businesses. It isn't in their financial interests to give military credit.

Exactly.

I was going to try and use several military courses that I completed towards a degree in the Liberal Arts and was only able to use them for one quarter of physical education.

And by the way, I learned far more about myself, people, cultural and physical geography, etc. in the military than I ever learned in a college classroom.