11-05-2004, 09:44
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#16
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Williamston, SC
Posts: 2,018
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I saw a post in another location stating that on gunnery practice, the A-10 pilots consistently put 20 rds in an 8 ft square target, and often all 25. It's so valuable as a CAS acft that I understand the USAF is or has trashed it. When I joined the Army, the US Army had the third largest air force in the world. IMNHO we should have retained all tactical ground support aircraft.
The USAF still has the public and much of the government convinced they can win wars without putting boots on the ground. After all of the air strikes in Fallujah it is still going to take the grunts to go in and do what should have been done a year ago.
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QRQ 30 is offline
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11-05-2004, 10:30
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#17
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Ft Bragg, NC
Posts: 1,126
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Team Sergeant
The USAF killed more soldiers (Americans, Brits etc) then the entire Iraq military before, during and after Desert Storm.
TS
(BTW, I are a graduate of the AF TACP school.)
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I had a team mate say something similar to that in front of a TACP. He said "the Air Force has killed more sf guys then the taliban" ...wow the TACP took that little comment very seriously. He was very pissed off.
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Max_Tab is offline
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11-05-2004, 10:41
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#18
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 20,929
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Max_Tab
I had a team mate say something similar to that in front of a TACP. He said "the Air Force has killed more sf guys then the taliban" ...wow the TACP took that little comment very seriously. He was very pissed off.
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It's too bad its true..... and the reason myself and another Team member went to TACP school.... Very few know that only TACP's and SF'ers can call for airstrikes, set up fixed wing runways, select LZ's and DZ's etc.
Let's not forget how many times they have also pulled our bacon out of the fire in recent wars. The split ODA that was caught behind enemy lines during DS may not have survived had it not been for the USAF!
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Team Sergeant is offline
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11-05-2004, 11:41
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#19
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,832
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by QRQ 30
I saw a post in another location stating that on gunnery practice, the A-10 pilots consistently put 20 rds in an 8 ft square target, and often all 25. It's so valuable as a CAS acft that I understand the USAF is or has trashed it. When I joined the Army, the US Army had the third largest air force in the world. IMNHO we should have retained all tactical ground support aircraft.
The USAF still has the public and much of the government convinced they can win wars without putting boots on the ground. After all of the air strikes in Fallujah it is still going to take the grunts to go in and do what should have been done a year ago.
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Well said!
Concur 100%.
The only USAF a/c procurement since 1960, IIRC stopped at the end of its initial buy has been the A-10.
A few years back, the AF looked at transferring them to the Army, WITHOUT THE MAIN GUN, HARDPOINTS, PERSONNEL, OR FUNDING!!
They thought we could use them as FAC a/c for the fast movers.
I think a large part of the reason we had marginal numbers of ground forces in OIF was the AF selling a bill of goods on what air power alone could accomplish.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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11-05-2004, 11:44
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#20
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,832
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Team Sergeant
It's too bad its true..... and the reason myself and another Team member went to TACP school.... Very few know that only TACP's and SF'ers can call for airstrikes, set up fixed wing runways, select LZ's and DZ's etc.
Let's not forget how many times they have also pulled our bacon out of the fire in recent wars. The split ODA that was caught behind enemy lines during DS may not have survived had it not been for the USAF!
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Yes, it is true, AF fratricide is a (if not the) major killer of SF.
IIRC, the Navy has flown quite a few support missions for us, and is very happy doing CAS.
Are you taliking about Bulldog's team?
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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11-05-2004, 11:46
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#21
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 20,929
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by The Reaper
Are you taliking about Bulldog's team?
TR
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Roger, I knew all those guys.
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Team Sergeant is offline
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11-05-2004, 11:48
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#22
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Auxiliary
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 68
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Huey14
Would an investigation into this be made public at all? I would love to read it when it's finished.
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I would presume it will all be investigated by the Air Force.
The FAA/NTSB will probably get the results afterwards for pacification, if they are even involved at ths point. The NTSB reports their investigations on their website, however, I am not sure where this would fall with them. It may not be included as a public investigation since the aircraft itself was not in an accident.
If you are looking to read accident investigations go to the NTSB website and search away. I used to search through here when I was getting my private license and learned alot about accidents and root causes of them. You will be surprised at what most problems are....you guessed it right, Pilot Error.
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flyboy1 is offline
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11-05-2004, 12:21
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#23
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Quiet Professional
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This is not unusual, particularly as urban sprawl has encroached on bases.
I have seen bombs, rockets, heavy artillery, mortars, and small arms fire hit civilian housing before.
There will be an investigation, followed by a bunch of new range rules and outreach efforts to the affected community.
If they gripe to long and loud, they might get a visit from the BRAC Committee.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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11-05-2004, 14:08
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#24
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Kia ora, bro
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 931
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Cheers Flyboy, I'll have a gander over there.
I remember the USAF "got" one of the SAS boys a few a years ago in Kuwait, Maj McNutt I believe his name was.
__________________
"You destroyed half a city block!"
"That block was already messed up."
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Huey14 is offline
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11-05-2004, 14:16
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#25
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Williamston, SC
Posts: 2,018
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Huey14
Cheers Flyboy, I'll have a gander over there.
I remember the USAF "got" one of the SAS boys a few a years ago in Kuwait, Maj McNutt I believe his name was.
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IIRC the zoomies claimed they were drugged up on pills. OTOH ithat was the wedding party.
ZOOMIES don't have a monopoly of FF incidents. It was a standing joke in I Corp that for weekend entertainment, the VC would get between two jarhead units, fire a couple of rounds in the air then lay back and watch the fireworks.
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QRQ 30 is offline
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11-05-2004, 21:45
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#26
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Kia ora, bro
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 931
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That was the Canadian snipers in Afghanistan. I have some strong opinions on that paticular incident, too, but I wasn't there so my opinion is probably more like my ar*ehole- full of sh*t.
__________________
"You destroyed half a city block!"
"That block was already messed up."
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Huey14 is offline
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11-06-2004, 05:54
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#27
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Area Commander
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: MD
Posts: 1,012
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by The Reaper
Yes, it is true, AF fratricide is a (if not the) major killer of SF.
IIRC, the Navy has flown quite a few support missions for us, and is very happy doing CAS.
TR
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That we are, Sir.
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lrd is offline
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12-18-2004, 07:26
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#28
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Asset
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 45
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1026 is offline
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12-18-2004, 08:19
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#29
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Bladesmith to the Quiet Professionals
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oregon, Land of the Silver Grey Sunsets
Posts: 3,886
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Interesting follow up, Thanks for posting that.
Is this a weapons system design problem?
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Bill Harsey is offline
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12-18-2004, 08:26
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#30
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Area Commander
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: MD
Posts: 1,012
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Bill Harsey
Interesting follow up, Thanks for posting that.
Is this a weapons system design problem?
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"the MP forgot that his aircraft's air-to-ground gun mode was selected and armed ready to fire"
I don't think a redesign will help this one. But I've been wrong before.
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lrd is offline
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