Why I Don't Want to Be a West Point Graduate

[Roguish Lawyer]

Did he sue yet?

[PRB]

WAAAHHHH, bad people made me quit....or my grades did, or maybe I just couldn't cut it so I wrote a note blaming other folks for my failure.
What a bunch of crap toned to get sympathy from whomever.
Sounds like a certain Football player that killed his family and some are blaming the 2nd Ammendment rather than the perp.

[Trapper John]

Originally Posted by Razor

Frankly, I'm glad this cadet has decided to leave before taking a commission and becoming responsible for the well-being of someone other than his own selfish ass. If he's this whiny about being exposed to the religious beliefs of others, then he would have been a real joy to work with (or worse, work for) once he joined the real Army and learned that accepting things you may not like or agree with is a regular part of the job.

I really like this point, Razor. I couldn't help but visualizing this cadet as a Company commander in a situation where he had to participate in the religious ceremonies with an indigenous tribal leader upon whose support his Company depends. Would he decline, because he was not religious and the "mandatory" service would offend his non-religious sensibilities? Would he risk offending the people upon whom the life of his men depends to satisfy his vanity.

That aside, he obviously had lousy SA. He knew the drill before accepting the appointment. Or is he so slow that it took 3.5 years for SA to dawn on him? If he is this poor at assessing his environment, then the USMA was too slow in weeding him out.

This is just another example of a behavior founded in the notion that "I am special and what I want matters most"...whine, whine, whine. Damn, the more I think about this the madder I am getting So I am going to stop

To be clear, I admire people who have the courage of their convictions, John Paul Vann for example. He stuck by his views, expressed them, and risked his career for them. That is courage!

This Cadet's resignation shows that he does not have that kind of courage.

Definitely, not a leader. Goodbye

[The Reaper]

I was made to go to church by my parents.

I go now when I feel like it.

They can make you sit in a pew, but they cannot make you worship.

That is between you, and your God. Or none.

I do not think the basic lessons of Christianity (or Judaism, Buddhism, etc.) are a bad foundation, or are dangerous to have those around you practicing today.

TR

[Trapper John]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

I wonder about those who say that a number is "countless" or "too many to list" when they're trying to enhance the credibility of their POV. If the number is "countless," then so is the number of cadets at West Point. But since that number is knowable, then so is the number of cadets who've experienced the frustration Page describes.

I just love the way you think.

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

I do not think the basic lessons of Christianity (or Judaism, Buddhism, etc.) are a bad foundation, or are dangerous to have those around you practicing today.

"etc."? Do you include Islam, Sir?

[Jersey Dirtbag]

Originally Posted by Razor

Jersey Dirtbag, by sitting through those religious services, could you have potentially learned more about something that your soldiers (or coworkers, or employees, or...) believe and thus come to understand them and their worldview better?

That's certainly a fair point. But while there may be some merit to better acquainting oneself with the culture and beliefs of one's subordinates, I think that's a decision best left to the individual. I have no ideological opposition to sitting in on a Christian service, but I do have a problem with being treated with disdain and penalized for choosing not to do so.

Originally Posted by blue02hd

Jersey,

This might be a thought that could help frame the bigger picture. As an Officer Candidate, did you ever consider the endless tasks, orders, and expectations that you as a young leader would place on the enlisted men who who would be expected to perform them without question, let alone whether they agreed with it or not?

Absolutely. The distinction is that the orders and tasks I assign my men have an immediate and material impact on mission accomplishment and their welfare. My hypothetical attendance at a Christian service, while having some potential value as per my response to Razor, would have no such impact.

[blue02hd]

Originally Posted by Jersey Dirtbag

That's certainly a fair point. But while there may be some merit to better acquainting oneself with the culture and beliefs of one's subordinates, I think that's a decision best left to the individual. I have no ideological opposition to sitting in on a Christian service, but I do have a problem with being treated with disdain and penalized for choosing not to do so.



Absolutely. The distinction is that the orders and tasks I assign my men have an immediate and material impact on mission accomplishment and their welfare. My hypothetical attendance at a Christian service, while having some potential value as per my response to Razor, would have no such impact.

Really?

I'll argue that often there are times where there will not be such a distinction. Training for a 2 way range is just one minor example. YMMV.

[98G]

Originally Posted by Richard

IRT the cadet and the religious pressures he faced at the USMA - much like a similar situation at the USAFA several years ago, maybe we would have had to have been there to fully understand his position.

Richard

He certainly wrote a lengthly explanation of his position. I appreciate anyone who stands up for a minority view even if unpopular. I may not agree with them, but it is a hard path. That he gave up says that he thinks he can make a statement that is stronger by giving up or that he just wimped out.

His SA is what I would question and for that I am glad he was not commissioned. He should not lead men -- perhaps ever, certainly not now. I was recommended to West Point by some pretty good names (Patch/Bradley). I enlisted before my application was processed. I had limited SA at 17 years of age in a small town and a family of battlefield commissions and OCS and no Google. As a female, I did not want to take a slot that a male could potentially have in what I felt was our top school for officers who could fight in combat. I did not research enough to know about the mix in Army branches that make up the graduating classes. But I did have enough SA to know that West Point is strong on tradition. The cadet should not have been surprised that this was the case.

The other area, and most important that I think he missed, is the SA that said his country has been at war for the last decade. Maybe I am getting grouchy here, but all these clubs and organizations and requests for t-shirt funding... is that what cadets do? I am feeling really good about my enlistment just now We did make T-shirts for the Nijmegen march out of our pockets and sold them for extra cash. The Dutch Army funded all our drinks buying them at a ridiculous profit margin.

[Badger52]

Originally Posted by Roguish Lawyer

Did he sue yet?

He's probably being contacted for a postable snapshot this very minute. Maybe they'll help him pay his schooling costs back and be too broke to execute the latest crusade-of-the-week to move Little Town, America's nativity scene.

[Richard]

I am making an assumption here purely based on the sparse information available on him at this point and how the system works, but Cadet Page was prior service and must have demonstrated his leadership potential to his chain-of-command prior to being accepted into and during his USMA Prep School time. He was also not a plebe, but had been at the USMA for over 3 years and was set to graduate the end of this school year.

I'm not sure anybody knows why he's doing what he's doing at this point, except he himself. Maybe there's some merit to his claims - however, to what extent...? <shrug>

No matter how it all shakes out, it will be interesting to see what is made of all this and what becomes of his actions.

Richard

[Razor]

As more details emerge, I'd guess we'll find out that he's failing in either academics or leadership, and since DADT is no longer an "easy out" option, he's working a different angle to leave "on his own terms" rather than be kicked out for failing something. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened.

[Hand]

Originally Posted by Jersey Dirtbag

I'm an atheist and it has been my experience that many of those who are outspoken about their atheism are less interested in the pursuit of truth and intellectual/scientific honesty than they are in the unmaking or transformation of any and all institutions founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

In my experience, your statement applies just as accurately to many of the niche groups in American society who are parading around screaming for 'equality'. The 'equality' they seek is exactly as you stated "transformation of any and all institutions founded on Judeo-Christian principles".

[Jersey Dirtbag]

Originally Posted by Hand

In my experience, your statement applies just as accurately to many of the niche groups in American society who are parading around screaming for 'equality'. The 'equality' they seek is exactly as you stated "transformation of any and all institutions founded on Judeo-Christian principles".

Indeed. There are many movements which, if undertaken apolitically, are commendable and have value to society in general. Environmentalism comes to mind. However, we know that modern environmentalism is primarily a facade for anti-capitalism and it achieves its unstated end through lobbying for carbon taxes and other penalties on corporations.

The flip side of this coin is, of course, the conservative/Republican backlash which comes in various forms. Some of them are rather crude and consist of labeling the "environmentalists" as tree-huggers and other such names. However, this mocks not the subversive, anti-Western/anti-capitalist core of their agenda but rather the environmentalism itself, which -- as I said -- is actually a commendable undertaking. Thus the Republicans and "conservatives" make idiots of themselves by mocking an apparently virtuous position and totally missing the fact that all its supposed virtuosity is simply a cover for the underlying motivation, which is to systematically disassemble/destroy Western civilization.

As one of my favorite bloggers asks rhetorically, "where would the Democrats be without the Republicans?"

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Jersey Dirtbag

.............. Thus the Republicans and "conservatives" make idiots of themselves by mocking an apparently virtuous position and totally missing the fact that all its supposed virtuosity is simply a cover for the underlying motivation, which is to systematically disassemble/destroy Western civilization.........................

You must have missed the clip on Tree Huggers we have floating around here.

There is a big difference between "Tree Huggers" and people who are "Conservationalists".