Out of Africa

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

It is interesting how you attempt to draw comparisons between the history of SA and U.S. history--but quickly come to mock the latter when your understanding of either is questioned.

Sigaba, I just sent you the:

Military Order of the Loyal Legion of the United States, Commandery of the State of New York. 1867-1922 [Eight Volumes]
New York Commandery
First edition

It needs to be transcribed, it's in Latin, now go and play.

Warriors are chatting.

TS

[mark46th]

TS- One of those reasons why Team Sergeants yell.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Guymullins

What exactly is your problem with the Boy Scouts? Dont tell me they were actually invented by Davy Crockett and Mr Bowie at the Alamo?

Funny you should mention that. The Boy Scouts of America was indeed heavily influenced by B-P's Scout organization; however, they also find their lineage in Daniel Carter Beard's Sons of Daniel Boone and Ernest Thompson Seton's Woodcraft Indians. In fact, all three men knew of each other's youth movements, and B-P even used elements of Seton's Woodcraft Indian program in fleshing out his Scout program. So, it could be said that while B-P was "majority owner", as it were, of today's World Organization of the Scout Movement, there's more than a trace of Yank blood flowing through its veins.

Originally Posted by Dusty

The Scout thing's moot if they go gay; then, nobody will claim lineage.

Ironically, Dusty, there are plenty of questions about ol' B-P's partner preference.

[Guymullins]

Originally Posted by Richard

Sarcasm noted.

I was a Scout as were my sons, one of which achieved the rank of Eagle.

This is what the BSA says about its founder and their history.

http://www.scout.org/en/about_scouti...t_of_the_world



And an even older CSA tune.

Granted, the "Sarie Marais" was a Boer song about the Boer War, but the tune was originally called "Ellie Rhee" and it comes - ironically - from the Confederate States of America.

"Ellie Rhee" tells the story of a Tennessee slave who runs away from his master but now wonders if the price of his new-found freedom (the loss of his one true love) was too high to pay.

Although the song never enjoyed enormous popularity here, it certainly has as the basis for "My Sarie Marais Is So Ver Van My Hart."

And so it goes...

Richard

Richard, I had heard that about the origin of Sarie Marais and I am sure it may be true. However, the Royal Marine Commando Marching Song version is surely derived from the Afrikaans vesion. Incidentally, I was a Scout too, but the bastardised and watered down South African version.
The Wiki sourse for Trenches is probably derived from the book I use for all things concerning the Boer War, Thomas Packenhams Boer War. It is an excellent very readable history of the war and at last , gives the story without taking sides. All the other Boer War books have been either totally anti-British or the reverse regarding the Boers. Another good book is Three Years War by Gen. Christiaan De Wet, but I doubt whether you can get that there.

[Guymullins]

Originally Posted by Razor

Funny you should mention that. The Boy Scouts of America was indeed heavily influenced by B-P's Scout organization; however, they also find their lineage in Daniel Carter Beard's Sons of Daniel Boone and Ernest Thompson Seton's Woodcraft Indians. In fact, all three men knew of each other's youth movements, and B-P even used elements of Seton's Woodcraft Indian program in fleshing out his Scout program. So, it could be said that while B-P was "majority owner", as it were, of today's World Organization of the Scout Movement, there's more than a trace of Yank blood flowing through its veins.



Ironically, Dusty, there are plenty of questions about ol' B-P's partner preference.

Regarding the Gayness, or grumpiness of BP. The Victorian English Gentleman of the time was an energetic and industrius fellow who often sublimated his sex drive by doing great things. Cecil Rhodes was also accused (many years after his death) of having doubtful sexual orientation. He never married, in contrast to BP, but died very young although he achieved great things. Although much digging has been done into his past, no-one has managed to prove anything one way or the other about him. I dont think either BP or Rhodes were gay, but Sigaba will no doubt demand that I examine their underwear and report in detail on the stains found therein.

[TiroFijo]

Originally Posted by Guymullins

Afrikaans is one of the youngest languages and is entirely made up from borrowed words. Mainly Dutch in origin, but with a strong French influence from the Huguenots who fled France for Africa. There are many Portuguese words too, because they were neighbors on both east and west sides. There was German from German SW Africa, another neighbor and of course English due to being an English Colony for some time. So, when someone say an Afrikaans word, it could have come from almost any language originally.

IIRC, and according to my language teachers at U. of Pretoria, about 90% of afrikaans words come from ancient ducth. And from my belgian friends, the flemish dialect has more in common (and pronunciation) with afrikaans than modern dutch.

I have sadly forgotten about 90% of the little afrikaans I learned...

I'm a native spanish speaker, but my english was pretty decent and I think actually got worse after two years submerged into afrikanerland

[Guymullins]

Originally Posted by TiroFijo

IIRC, and according to my language teachers at U. of Pretoria, about 90% of afrikaans words come from ancient ducth. And from my belgian friends, the flemish dialect has more in common (and pronunciation) with afrikaans than modern dutch.

I have sadly forgotten about 90% of the little afrikaans I learned...

I'm a native spanish speaker, but my english was pretty decent and I think actually got worse after two years submerged into afrikanerland

That could be about right Tiro. The Afrikaaners who left the Cape still spoke High Dutch and their only reading matter, their bibles, were in Dutch. Being litteral people, they refused to give the new animals they encountered new names, but used only names that occured in the Bible. Thus a Hippo became a Sea Cow, a girraffe a Camel Horse, a Meercat a mouse dog, a leopard a Tger despite no stripes and an Impala, a Red Goat. Today, I find it fairly easy to read Dutch, but very difficult to speak and hear it. Flemish and Afrikaans are so close it is just a matter of accent that differentiates and I suppose this is also because of the French influence acting on both Dutch-based languages acting completely independently of one another, but coming to a similar conclusion. If you were in Pretoria, you would have heard much more Afrikaans than English, so you were probably tri-lingual here.

[TiroFijo]

Ja, nearly all my friends and professors were afrikaner, and some families remembered well the "umpleasantries" of the Boer war and still disliked to some extent the english. If you are of english origin you should know that well, specially in the army.

Compared to U. of Pretoria, liberal Johannesburg Wits was "Moscow on the Hills"

When Mandela came to our university it was something to see.

Oddly, being a catholic from south america the family values, friends and lifestyle of most of SA made me feel at home inmediatly. And you could go to the Chaco region around here and think you are in the SA bush.

[Guymullins]

Originally Posted by TiroFijo

Ja, nearly all my friends and professors were afrikaner, and some families remembered well the "umpleasantries" of the Boer war and still disliked to some extent the english. If you are of english origin you should know that well, specially in the army.

Compared to U. of Pretoria, liberal Johannesburg Wits was "Moscow on the Hills"

When Mandela came to our university it was something to see.

Oddly, being a catholic from south america the family values, friends and lifestyle of most of SA made me feel at home inmediatly. And you could go to the Chaco region around here and think you are in the SA bush.

I am of Irish/Greek extraction, but married an Afrikaaner so I am well aware of the antipathy to the English because of another first South Africa gave to the world. Concentration Camps. The British during the Boer War rounded up the families of the Boers and put them into Concentration Camps where they were allowed to die of starvation and disease by the thousands.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Guymullins

I am of Irish/Greek extraction, but married an Afrikaaner so I am well aware of the antipathy to the English because of another first South Africa gave to the world. Concentration Camps. The British during the Boer War rounded up the families of the Boers and put them into Concentration Camps where they were allowed to die of starvation and disease by the thousands.

I have always been taught that such camps - as we've come to understand them - first appeared in Spain's war against Cuban independence and then by the English during the Boer War.

Richard

[Guymullins]

Originally Posted by Richard

I have always been taught that such camps - as we've come to understand them - first appeared in Spain's war against Cuban independence and then by the English during the Boer War.

Richard

If you go right back, you can argue that the US camps used to inter the Indian tribes were the first ones, followed by the Spanish Cuban ones, which were called reconcentrados or re-concentration camps. I think the first time the word Concentration Camp was used, it was by the English in South Africa. The Germans used them in our neighboring territory German South West Africa as well in real genocidal intent. They perfected them during WW2 many years later.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Guymullins

I am of Irish/Greek extraction, but married an Afrikaaner so I am well aware of the antipathy to the English because of another first South Africa gave to the world. Concentration Camps. The British during the Boer War rounded up the families of the Boers and put them into Concentration Camps where they were allowed to die of starvation and disease by the thousands.

Originally Posted by Guymullins

If you go right back, you can argue that the US camps used to inter the Indian tribes were the first ones, followed by the Spanish Cuban ones, which were called reconcentrados or re-concentration camps. I think the first time the word Concentration Camp was used, it was by the English in South Africa. The Germans used them in our neighboring territory German South West Africa as well in real genocidal intent. They perfected them during WW2 many years later.

So now you're saying it wasn't South Africa which gave us the concpet of 'concentration camps' as "we've come to understand them in recent history", but America? Nothing like perverse view of Yankee ingenuity combined with pseudo-historical revisionim on a scale which would make the likes of a Ward Churchill proud to liven up a discussion of this sort.

Richard

[Guymullins]

Originally Posted by Richard

So now you're saying it wasn't South Africa which gave us the concpet of 'concentration camps' as "we've come to understand them in recent history", but America? Nothing like perverse view of Yankee ingenuity combined with pseudo-historical revisionim on a scale which would make the likes of a Ward Churchill proud to liven up a discussion of this sort.

Richard

Yes, if people wish to pick nits about things, I can also do so. This time it rebounds upon the nit-picker somewhat.

[ZonieDiver]

Originally Posted by Guymullins

Yes, if people wish to pick nits about things, I can also do so. This time it rebounds upon the nit-picker somewhat.

I'm still in 'crabby mode'! Who the F are you calling a 'nit-picker'?

No pink. No smiley. No nothing

[MR2]

I think this whole Thread needs a dose of Qwell.

and I mean both meanings!