KOSHER Cooking

[BOfH]

Originally Posted by PedOncoDoc

Entire post

Your welcome The basic tenets are pretty much universal, particulars will vary based on a persons origins and level of observance.

Cheeseburgers may be allowed in heaven, who knows

ETA: Head coverings, modesty and women in Judaism(in general) is a whole 'nother world altogether.

Penn,
Thanks for the information(and education) Much appreciated! Many "converted" Kosher recipes generally substitute the fat and cream with that combination. Most of my cooking experience centers around meat and open fires and chulent(I'll get to that in my next post), though my wife uses the combination quite often, she makes an excellent broccoli/spinach pie with it

[Pete]

There appears to be two things going on here - at least to me.

You have the KOSHER Cooking that is done in accordance with religious dictates which produces the true KOSHER foods........

And then you have the "KOSHER" recipes that look and taste "KOSHER" but were not prepared under the religious dictates.

Are there KOSHER restaurants in the big city and are they double inspected by the city and a rabbi to keep the KOSHER label?

[mark46th]

I used to be partners in a pie manufacturing company. We were approached by a rabbi to get Kosher certification. City, county and state inspectors were a separate deal(don't get me started on 3X health codes).

[BOfH]

Originally Posted by Pete

There appears to be two things going on here - at least to me.

You have the KOSHER Cooking that is done in accordance with religious dictates which produces the true KOSHER foods........

And then you have the "KOSHER" recipes that look and taste "KOSHER" but were not prepared under the religious dictates.

Are there KOSHER restaurants in the big city and are they double inspected by the city and a rabbi to keep the KOSHER label?

QP Pete,

With regards to certification, it is generally done by an agency, depending on where the restaurant/supermarket/factory is. Some are national, even international like the Orthodox Union(OU), Kof-K, and Star K. Some states have a Kosher Enforcement Bureau, in order to prevent "Kosher" label fraud, however there is no enforcement done by the city/state/federal authorities. Aside from the fraud aspect, enforcing Kosher via civil law blurs the boundaries of separation of church and state, posing serious legal and constitutional issues.

With regards to recipes etc., you can cook something that is completely Kosher both in ingredients and in preparation, however, to sell it commercially would require some sort of certification as your target audience would be looking for it.

[mark46th]

BofH- Exactly- Thanks!

[Penn]

Mark, a friend of my wife brought MC public. Saunders, Karp and McGrue.

Some interesting things about a French kitchen; meat is rarely, if ever cook in a pan that has been used to reduce cream.
Most stations have there own pans and rarely are they shared with other station in a kitchen, because they are seasoned differently, particularly if they are cast iron. And they rarely see soap.
We always had three stations, meat, fish, veg. Veg used 1qt. Pot for most doers, meat used cast-iron, and fish has been plancha for ever, no pans at all.
If fact, I stopped use any sauté pans for protiens about a year ago. Everything off a grill or the Plancha. Perfect food.
Would think that would be as near to Kosher as you could get without certification.

[mark46th]

I was with them 1975-80, IIRC. Don Callender was still present. The upper management was a cult of personality. A couple of them were very knowledgeable and capable. Some were more interested in guarding their turf than anything. Don sold it for $72 Million in cash. He was no fool...

[echoes]

Originally Posted by BOfH

I'll bite(no pun intended)

Disclaimer: The following comes from years of experience(eating Kosher since day one ) and what I have learned over the years, however, it is in no way definitive.


The laws of Kashrut are very complex and vary depending on where one's family is from; modern technology adds to this complexity as well. It seems the Rabbi who you were working with had it down to a science, as do many who oversee food preparation, and taught you well

The foundations for the separation of milk and meat stem from the fact that the Bible(Old Testament) states "Do not cook a calf in its mother's milk" three times, from there it is derived three negative prohibitions:
1) do not cook
2) do not eat
3) do not derive benefit

This Biblical prohibition only applies to Kosher warm-blooded animals, however the Rabbis extended the prohibition to apply to fowl as well. Kosher warm-blooded animals and fowl require ritual slaughter(hence the reason why Jews don't hunt for food) with an extremely sharp knife, soaked and salted in order to drain the blood as not to violate the prohibition of eating blood. Fish does not require ritual slaughter or soaking and salting, fish blood is technically Kosher, however a Rabbinic prohibition exists in order to prevent deception. A Kosher animal must have split hooves and chew its cud, fowl is listed, Kosher fish must have fins and scales. The prohibition of cooking extends to the utensils used, however, there are complex laws which define a utensils status when hot, cold, after 24 hours of no use, washed with strong detergents etc. As a result, a Kosher kitchen maintains two separate sets of utensils, one for milk and one for meat and sometimes a third for Pareve(neutral) or non-milk or meat food products. The colors you mentioned above are often used to denote milk, meat and Pareve.

Over the years, tradition and custom has varied among Jews from different parts of the world, for example:
1. The waiting time between meat and milk varies, depending on where your family is from, most Jews of Eastern European descent wait 6 hours, German Jews wait 3 hours, Dutch Jews wait 30 minutes(I have to double check this) etc .
2. Sephardic Jews(Middle Eastern) do not eat fish and milk together.
3. Waiting time between aged(hard) cheeses and meat varies as well.

Technology adds its complexities as well. It is generally accepted that one maintains separate dishwashers for utensils used with meat than with milk, however, there are opinions that state due to the intense heat and strength of the detergents, clean dishes technically can have no status i.e. they can be used for either milk and meat. Glass, certain plastics and Teflon present issues as well since they are non-porous, there are opinions that state they hold no status at all and can be used for either milk or meat provided they are washed in between each transition.

As far as ethnic foods go, it really depends on region and availability of certain items. Eastern European ethnic Jewish food does not vary much from it's non-Jewish counterparts, heavy on the potatoes, chicken, carrots, onions and the occasional beef. The same goes for Sephardic(Middle Eastern) which is a large mix of rice, peppers, onions, tomatoes, goat and all things spicy.

Bear in mind that the laws of Kashrut fill thousands upon thousands of pages of Jewish law, it is a very complex area, and the above information really just scratches the surface.

I'll try to answer any further questions as best as I could, it's been a while since I have studied this area of law.

BOfH

Very well composed, IMHO, having just concluded a Kosher cooking experience! You hit the nail on the head, and the team from Wolfgang Puck that were brought in to assist us were phenomenal in their knowledge.

Kosher cooking i9s fun!

Holly

[BOfH]

While this might belong in the 'slow cooker' thread I am posting it here as it is unique in being universal to almost all Jews regardless of origin.

First, a little background: The Bible(Old Testament) prohibits lighting a new fire and/or transferring an existing flame on the Sabbath, this was extended to cover electricity and cars; Cooking is also prohibited. I guess I should note that both cooking and the transferring of an existing flame for the sake of food preparation are permitted on the holidays. That said, one is permitted to leave a flame on for the sake of re-heating dry foods, and one is permitted to leave a pot of liquid food(i.e. soup) on an existing flame at the start of the Sabbath for later consumption on the Sabbath. The same applies for lights left on, lights on a timer etc. Over the years, some break-away groups(Karaites etc.) rejected the Oral law(Mishna, Talmud) which derives these laws and on the Sabbath would sit in the dark, and eat cold food, essentially becoming "hyper-scriptualists" or something of that sort. As a result, the Sages instituted a custom to have some sort of hot food or drink on the Sabbath day. Granted a cup of coffee or tea will suffice, the custom evolved into making a stew of sorts as it could easily feed a large family, hence Cholent(Yiddish, not sure what it means) or Hamim(Hebrew, literally means "hot stuff") was born.

Cholent is a stew, what goes into it depends on your preference and family origins. Those of European descent usually stick with barley and beans while those of Middle Eastern descent use rice and chickpeas. Now, to break down the components:

1. Cooking utensils:

I primarily use a crock-pot(slow cooker), in my case a 3qt Rival set to 'Low'. All of the following amounts are based off the 3qt pot, so adjust accordingly. Cook time varies depending on the time of year, during the summer it will go up at about 5PM on Friday, eaten by 1:30PM on Saturday, so about 20 hours whereas during the winter, up by 2PM on Friday and eaten by 1:30PM Saturday, so a little under 24 hours; ultimately it all really depends on the contents getting cooked, so adjust the heat to cook time ratio accordingly.

Your greatest concern is ensuring that it doesn't burn, so water is crucial. I fill the crock-pot about 1/2 way with water. Keep in mind that both barley and beans absorb quite a bit of water while cooking.


2. Barley and Beans

Pearl barley, washed well, check for pebbles. I primarily use dry red kidney beans, canned might work, however given the cook time you may end up with mush. I usually soak the beans overnight in order to deal with the gas, it seems to help, however you could take the easy way out with Gasex or Beano
Other beans like white beans, lima beans and chickpeas(not really a bean) work as well. Again, its all about preference

Amount: About 3/4 to 1 cup of beans, about 1 1/2 of barley. Adjust the amounts per preference, i.e. more beans than barley may be a bit healthier.

3. Meat

The truth is, any meat goes, it's a stew. Currently I am using 2nd or 2rd cut spare ribs, though I have use keilbasa(sausage) in the past, again, its about preference. Keep in mind that most cuts will fall apart, so softer is not going to be better in this case. If time permits, brown the meat in olive oil with fresh onion, garlic and some black pepper. Dump the entire pan(oil and all) into the crock-pot.

Amount: Preference

4. Onion, garlic and potatoes

1 - 3 red or white potatoes, depends on preference. About 4 cloves of garlic and 1 medium onion chopped/sliced/diced.

5. Spices

I use about 1/2 cup of Bullseye Guinness BBQ sauce along with 3 tablespoons of a spice mix(i.e. Mrs. Dash), tablespoon of garlic powder, tablespoon of seasoned salt(Lawry's), teaspoon of pepper and drop of chili powder. Bay leaves and cumin are good as well, bear in mind that cumin does not "cook out" as much as some of the other spices, so go easy on the amount.

Other things to consider: ketchup, beer(especially a dark lager or draught), smokey scotch, honey dijon mustard.

6. Pairings

Primarily beer, scotch is good as well.

7. Cleanup

Unless you use a liner or have a pot that coated, you will get some "cook-on", so be prepared to soak the pot for a day or two.

That's all for now folks. Enjoy!

[echoes]

Originally Posted by BOfH

While this might belong in the 'slow cooker' thread I am posting it here as it is unique in being universal to almost all Jews regardless of origin.

7. Cleanup

Unless you use a liner or have a pot that coated, you will get some "cook-on", so be prepared to soak the pot for a day or two.

That's all for now folks. Enjoy!

BO,

This was one thing that was very confusing to me and my team....since everything is segregated to the tenth degree...washing/sanitizing each individual untensil/pot/cutting board/holding vessel etc... was not THE priority. Made some of us scrath our heads, but at the end of the day, if we asked the Rabbi if we could use A or B...for C and D, he helped us make it work...

Facinating though it is, it really is a lenghtly and time consuming process...if you are preparing for large groups.

Thanks for the background, it puts a lot of thing that I just did in perspective.

Holly