General: Army has a discipline problem

[mojaveman]

Originally Posted by PRB

I agree totally, 'back in the day' if you didn't have a few art 15's you weren't sojerin hard....one DUI should not be a carreer ender etc...patterns yes, one aw shit...no.

But that was the 'Old Army'. Knew plenty of folks who had at least one DUI. Sometimes if you were lucky the MPs would let you park your car and then give you a ride back to the barracks. Times have sure changed...

[BOfH]

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

While I agree in principal the problem is we need to start evaluation of soldiers on FIELD performance and knowledge not this check box bullshit the Army has turned into. Give me an 11B with a DUI and article 15 that knows his shit in combat over some pansy ass that looks pretty in uniform and knows the book but cant do shit in the field.

Sorry if I offend anyone here but I got off work at 0800 and havent slept in close to 2 hours. Throw in a couple glasses of vino and well..............

The "check the box" attitude pervades far more than the military, in my field we call it "rubber stamp security"

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

Sorry if I offend anyone here but I got off work at 0800 and havent slept in close to 2 hours. Throw in a couple glasses of vino and well..............

Well, hey, no sleep for 2 whole hours and a sip of Pinot Grigio would knock any real cop off his feet.

[The Reaper]

Hey, four years ago, the war was hot and they needed people.

Now, not so much.

This is the third or fourth RIF that I have seen coming. Happens after every war.

The cops used to ignore drunk drivers as well, unless they hit something. News flash. Times have changed and everyone knows the rules and the consequences before they take the wheel.

Big boy rules include paying the piper if you get caught.

Who should they be putting out, people without criminal records?

TR

[Texas_Shooter]

I just got finished with 9 weeks here at Ft. Benning. It was not what I expected. I honestly expected worse. As in getting smoked 24/7. Not sleeping at all. It's battalion rule that we get at least four hours of sleep. WEAK! The other Privates I went through basic with, it was just an extension of high school for them. The DS are awesome though. My shark attack was mediocre at best. I did not get yelled at a once. Basic is where the shitbags need to be taken care of. And you can definitely tell which ones are that way. My only hope is that when those select individuals get to their duty station, that their team lead takes "care" of them.

[goon175]

Who should they be putting out, people without criminal records?

First and foremost, they should be putting out those soldiers who cannot pass a PT test, or are overweight. I would say after we get those types out, then move on to the guys who have had run-ins with the law.

[plato]

Originally Posted by goon175

First and foremost, they should be putting out those soldiers who cannot pass a PT test, or are overweight. I would say after we get those types out, then move on to the guys who have had run-ins with the law.

Alternate viewpoint, although I've heard from many who cite the PT test as an important factor, and I respect that viewpoint. I see great logic in having different PT tests to qualify for the different MOS's. I doubt that a good mess sergeant will ever need to ruck 100 pounds or toss a grenade with accuracy. And, a tough PT test for combat arms, perhaps an even tougher one for SpecOps sounds reasonable, screening out those who yell about opportunity instead of the needs of the unit.

But I also wonder if his brothers are trying to help him make the grade.

I'm one who experienced a couple of good SF Colonels, one who brought me into the 1st Group to rebuild and learn, because he knew how much I wanted that flash and a second one who told me I could work out any time during the day that I could spare me from my duties.

Heck. I had a B-team leader who taught me to dive and harrassed me appropriately under water. He was even trying to figure out how to get me out of an aircraft HALO style without getting his butt badly burned, when we were booted off the island.

And there was the S-3 who tossed down the gauntlet for 3 on 3 volleyball during lunch, to help rebuild my endurance as well as muscle. That was Dick Meadows, THE Dick Meadows. His greatness wasn't limited to his military skills.

And, those last 3 paragraphs aren't directly on topic, but close enough I think. They have gone thru my mind often when I see questions from support troops who want to be a QP. If you're busting your butt, help comes to you from all over. Every QP I met seemed to go out of their way to make those who weren't feel like a full part of the team.

Never got the body back to what it was, but the "us" approach in the group was constant, and I never saw a hint of "not one of us". Turned what could have been the most bitter years of my life into memories I'll never give up.

Especially to the FOGs, I just needed to say that.

[Utah Bob]

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

lol 24 hours not 2 my typing skills are a bit suspect at best.

I thought maybe you had joined the Air Force.

[trvlr]

Originally Posted by RndTblKnght

We just got a TRADOC Tasking just two days ago with a suspense of today for any E7's and above to admit to any "criminal convictions" that we have had since 2008. Here go the first round of drawdowns!!

Army wide my good man. That message just got passed down to my MCCC class. One of my classmates got a drunk and disorderly a couple months ago, and said it goes into a file with the JAG folks.

[greenberetTFS]

Originally Posted by Dusty

The solution is to nip the problem in the bud by eliminating the Officer corps.

Big Teddy

[Dusty]

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

You talking about the same PT test the Army has finally realized some people pass with flying colors but they can not keep up in combat because it does not relate.

Are you also talking about the body fat chart that if a guy has 10% body fat, but is a body builder and can PT till the cows come home but is over his weight for height can get booted?

IMHO it should be about how well a solder does their job not the check box

What. They don't do the pinch-test?

[goon175]

Originally Posted by goon175
First and foremost, they should be putting out those soldiers who cannot pass a PT test, or are overweight. I would say after we get those types out, then move on to the guys who have had run-ins with the law.


You talking about the same PT test the Army has finally realized some people pass with flying colors but they can not keep up in combat because it does not relate.

Are you also talking about the body fat chart that if a guy has 10% body fat, but is a body builder and can PT till the cows come home but is over his weight for height can get booted?

IMHO it should be about how well a solder does their job not the check box

How effective the current APFT is, is a whole different conversation in itself. I agree, just because you meet the minimum requirements on the APFT does not mean you can keep up in combat situations. But, I can guarantee that the soldiers who cannot pass a PT test, will not be able to keep up in combat either (or atleast the majority of them anyway). And if a guy has 10% body fat, he is in no way close to getting booted, as the Army allows males to have up to 24% body fat, and females up to 30%. Bottom line, if you cannot meet the bare minimum standards for the organization you voluntarily choose to be in, you should be first to get the boot when that organization is downsizing.

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by goon175

How effective the current APFT is, is a whole different conversation in itself. I agree, just because you meet the minimum requirements on the APFT does not mean you can keep up in combat situations. But, I can guarantee that the soldiers who cannot pass a PT test, will not be able to keep up in combat either (or atleast the majority of them anyway). And if a guy has 10% body fat, he is in no way close to getting booted, as the Army allows males to have up to 24% body fat, and females up to 30%. Bottom line, if you cannot meet the bare minimum standards for the organization you voluntarily choose to be in, you should be first to get the boot when that organization is downsizing.

I know enough PT studs who can't motivate anyone to follow them across the street or find their ass with both hands, and conversely, enough solid Soldiers who don't meet body fat standards but can lead, to question the motivations of anyone who makes PT tests their number one criteria for eliminating Soldiers from the ranks.

I'm also curious about the General's definition of discipline. Is it parade ground spit and polish and blind obedience because of his exhalted status? How about mindless drones that shout "Sir, Yes Sir, three bags full" every time he farts? Reality is - yes, there are some problems, but we've also got a lot of very intelligent, combat experienced junior Soldiers (E6 - O3 types) who understand duty, leadership, and responsibility. To counter that we've got a fair percentage of current senior leadership that is NOT deserving of their respect. Maybe the General needs to quit bitching about the messenger and listen when somebody tells him he isn't wearing any clothes.

And the pundits wonder why it's so hard to convince some of the best and brightest to stay in the Service.

[Richard]

Multiple DUI's??? Sayo-effin'-nara to that career, baby.

During the time I was in the service, drinking and getting drunk periodically was not uncommon - however, being drunk offered no excuse for not being held wholly responsible for your actions and a DUI was the proverbial career ending move...especially if you were an NCO or Officer. We all knew that.

We always had a policy of don't drink and drive - either use a designated driver or drinking and need a ride, call me, I'll come get you and then we'll discuss it in the morning.

In 7th SFGA we used to have the SDNCO and SOG on-call to give guys a ride home in the duty jeeps if they were leaving the NCO Club or Annex and too drunk to drive.

The nice thing about Tolz was it was a short walk from the Rod & Gun to wherever your quarters were - probably saved a lot of NCOs who might've attempted to drive otherwise.

DUIs in America today cost far more lives annually than we've suffered from a decade of war in OEF and OIF combined. http://www.alcoholalert.com/drunk-dr...tatistics.html

And a relatively small percentage of soldiers being problem children? So, what else is new.

I wasn't going to say anything, but when I looked at my wristwatch to check the time and saw the red dot in the middle of the glass crystal, it reminded me to 'Think Safety'...
Richard

[Jefe]

I liked the comment by a previous poster regarding the above. Paratrooper vs. Garatrooper basically.

Alot of discussion about DUIs and the PT test. I remember the SQT Test and NCO boards which are 'check the box" type things, but I think the Army has been badly hurt by getting rid of them.

Doing well on the SQT on paper doesn't guarantee operational performance, but you certainly verifly a baseline of knowledge (as with the board). And ARTEPs which I hope they are still doing althought those can be subjective.

I remember getting dinged in Canada because our patrol didn't get in the prone in the snow (on snowshoes) or step out into a proper cigar shape perimeter. I respectlfully explained the tracking ramifications as well as sustainability (freezing) but that was not in the FM so we were dinged! LOL.