05-28-2011, 18:39
|
#16
|
|
Quiet Professional
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wilson,NC
Posts: 1,506
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgoerz
Everywhere I been in the last 5 or so years.
Immediate threats are eliminated at the threshold before entering.
|
I had some major problems with their entry technique. Half the team was lollygagging back by the trucks!
1. The stack was sloppy and poorly positioned.
2. They took too long to get in the door, especially with no fire coming their way.
3. The shield man didn't push toward the threat.
4. This was a supposed search warrant. The primary objective is arrest. I could not make out commands to drop the weapon before any shots were fired.
5. As was stated earlier, too many people in the door shooting at once. It was obvious that at least two of them could not have had good target identification. The shield and teammates would have been blocking their view.
6. If the shield had chosen not to proceed inside, he should have fallen back and lipped the threshold, providing cover; visual idenitification and good position to give commands.
Team training seems an issue from the video.
__________________
"Solitude is strength; to depend on the presence of the crowd is weakness. The man who needs a mob to nerve him is much more alone than he imagines."
~ Paul Brunton (1898-1981)
R.D. Winters
|
|
rdret1 is offline
|
|
|
05-28-2011, 19:32
|
#17
|
|
Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,806
|
Just because you CAN militarize your LEOs today does not mean that you SHOULD do so.
If you are not going to take the time, money, and effort to do it right, maybe Mayberry really doesn't need a SWAT team full of Barneys who get the gear and the patch, but not the specialized selection and training.
This county has maybe 60,000 residents, with 40,000 of them in three adjacent communities, and IIRC, there are several SWAT teams.
If your department has less than a minimum number of officers, you probably do not need to be fielding a specialized team. Especially when the SO has one which can respond to any part of the county in less than an hour.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
|
|
The Reaper is offline
|
|
|
05-28-2011, 19:47
|
#18
|
|
Quiet Professional
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wilson,NC
Posts: 1,506
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper
Just because you CAN militarize your LEOs today does not mean that you SHOULD do so.
If you are not going to take the time, money, and effort to do it right, maybe Mayberry really doesn't need a SWAT team full of Barneys who get the gear and the patch, but not the specialized selection and training.
This county has maybe 60,000 residents, with 40,000 of them in three adjacent communities, and IIRC, there are several SWAT teams.
If your department has less than a minimum number of officers, you probably do not need to be fielding a specialized team. Especially when the SO has one which can respond to any part of the county in less than an hour.
TR
|
This was the SO SWAT team. Pima County Regional.
__________________
"Solitude is strength; to depend on the presence of the crowd is weakness. The man who needs a mob to nerve him is much more alone than he imagines."
~ Paul Brunton (1898-1981)
R.D. Winters
|
|
rdret1 is offline
|
|
|
05-28-2011, 20:23
|
#19
|
|
Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,806
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdret1
This was the SO SWAT team. Pima County Regional.
|
Any idea if there is a certification requirement for teams, or can any department grab some of their bubbas and claim they have one?
The Pima County team was seriously hosed up on this entry. Rookie mistakes.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
|
|
The Reaper is offline
|
|
|
05-29-2011, 07:03
|
#20
|
|
Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 704
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper
Any idea if there is a certification requirement for teams, or can any department grab some of their bubbas and claim they have one?
The Pima County team was seriously hosed up on this entry. Rookie mistakes.
TR
|
"Seriously hosed up" is a kind an interpretation. I would say disaster, undisciplined, unprofessional and possibly liable etc.
http://ntoa.org/site/
The National Tactical Officers Association sets standards and guidelines that are vigorous and challenging to meet. These standards range from selection, training, TM leadership amongst other critical skill sets. Sadly (to my knowledge & someone please let me know if I am wrong) these standards are not enforceable. They are suggestions and IMHO any team that can not meet the standards (for any reason) should stand down until such time they can meet the standards. NTOA also is a training organization the offers liason to professional police and military trainers. Training opportunities range from the mundane to the cool guy stuff. Additionally most states have their own state tactical associations that should mirror the NTOA standards. HTH
Last edited by Five-O; 05-29-2011 at 08:49.
|
|
Five-O is offline
|
|
|
05-29-2011, 07:39
|
#21
|
|
RIP Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The Ozarks
Posts: 10,072
|
Be nice if they had head cams; I'd like to No 1's video.
__________________
"There you go, again." Ronald Reagan
|
|
Dusty is offline
|
|
|
05-29-2011, 12:47
|
#22
|
|
Quiet Professional
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wilson,NC
Posts: 1,506
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Reaper
Any idea if there is a certification requirement for teams, or can any department grab some of their bubbas and claim they have one?
The Pima County team was seriously hosed up on this entry. Rookie mistakes.
TR
|
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=...w=1440&bih=819
As Five-O posted, the NTOA developed what are considered the minimum standards for both full time and part time teams. Minimum training hours are established for entry, sniper and negotiator postions. Most departments that are serious about their teams at least try to meet the minimum standards established by NTOA. Departments which are nationally accredited through CALEA ( http://www.calea.org/ ) have to provide documentation that their teams do meet these requirements as well as AAR documentation of all team missions ( search warrants, felony fugitive apprehensions, drug interdictions, etc.).
__________________
"Solitude is strength; to depend on the presence of the crowd is weakness. The man who needs a mob to nerve him is much more alone than he imagines."
~ Paul Brunton (1898-1981)
R.D. Winters
|
|
rdret1 is offline
|
|
|
05-29-2011, 17:23
|
#23
|
|
Quiet Professional
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NC for now
Posts: 2,418
|
They did make entry. Video doesn't show it. Don't know how fast it was thou.
__________________
Sounds like a s#*t sandwhich, but I'll fight anyone, I'm in.
|
|
kgoerz is offline
|
|
|
05-29-2011, 19:35
|
#24
|
|
Quiet Professional
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: FCCO
Posts: 403
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgoerz
They did make entry. Video doesn't show it. Don't know how fast it was thou.
|
21 seconds from the time the breacher hit the door, to when the video stopped and no-one looked close to gaining entry.
__________________
"The society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. -Thucydides:
|
|
MTN Medic is offline
|
|
|
05-30-2011, 06:10
|
#25
|
|
Quiet Professional
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Fayetteville
Posts: 13,080
|
Glad to see
Glad to see the cops were able to transition their eyes from the bright light of the outside to the darkened interior and have such a clear view as to what he was doing.
|
|
Pete is offline
|
|
|
05-30-2011, 09:34
|
#26
|
|
Area Commander
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Occupied Wokeville
Posts: 4,644
|
From a no experience, arm chairing perspective, Joe Average, I've seen other stuff on YouTube perspective...
The Team appeared to be a bit lackadaisical, taking their sweet ass time getting to the door. What I found of particular interest is at 00:17 someone say 'Bang, Bang, Bang' and at 00:43 the SWAT member on the back left who rushes up to get in on the action. Doesn't appear to be any use of incapacitating flash bangs or tear gas.
Again, I don't know jack but Bad Guy or not from my perspective it looks like a public relations nightmare.
__________________
Quote:
|
When a man dies, if nothing is written, he is soon forgotten.
|
|
|
Paslode is offline
|
|
|
05-30-2011, 10:05
|
#27
|
|
RIP Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The Ozarks
Posts: 10,072
|
Ya hadda be there.
__________________
"There you go, again." Ronald Reagan
|
|
Dusty is offline
|
|
|
05-30-2011, 10:08
|
#28
|
|
Area Commander
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Occupied Wokeville
Posts: 4,644
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty
Ya hadda be there.
|
Yeah I know, and 10 years ago no one would have released on YouTube.
It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World 
__________________
Quote:
|
When a man dies, if nothing is written, he is soon forgotten.
|
|
|
Paslode is offline
|
|
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 22:47.
|
|
|
Linear Mode
