Philly Fuzz Threatens to Make Life Uncomfortable for Legal Open Carriers

[rdret1]

Originally Posted by RB

sorry brother, but you are mistaken. He was Open Carrying, which is legal in Pa. Read the entirety of the interaction and listen to the recording.

No license, permit, nothing needed for OC.

Opencarry.org is an excellent site for rules, laws, regs on when and where you need what and when, in every state.

I personally turn on my DVR when I leave the house as I tend to OC a lot here in Fayetteville. It has 36 hrs of recordable time and the daily recording can be erased, making room for tomorrow. You never know when a clueless LEO will draw down on you and demand proof that you need permission to express your god given American right to defend yourself.

RTKBA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-vUYeJXSrA

Listen to it again. At 28 seconds, he asks the officer if he would like to see his driver license and permit to carry the firearm. At 37 seconds, he tells the officer "I am going to hand you my license to carry firearms." At 1:12, he says "I have a license to carry firearms." He stated the reason he carried in the open was because that was how he felt comfortable carrying it.

By what he said several times, he has a CCW permit. As for someone "baiting" an officer in some fashion, it happens all of the time. They do it to get out of tickets, to keep from being arrested, or just for the fame and notoriety.

[rdret1]

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

My question is under what authority did the cop stop him? What law did the officer suspect was broken to cause him to stop the guy? My understanding, when I went through a law enforcement class, was a police officer can not just randomly stop some one, they have to have a reason. If open carry is legal in PA then the fact the guy had a firearm is NOT good enough. A lawyer please chime in on this.

All that is needed for an officer to interact with you is reasonable suspicion. Reasonable suspicion is a very low threshold. It can be anything from someone not looking like they belong in a certain neighborhood to your tags hanging by one bolt. In this case, whether it was correct or not, the officer saw an openly carried firearm where he was not used to seeing that sort of behavior.

[rdret1]

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

Actually you have to be able to articulate that in court with facts. They brought up the point of some one looking like they don't belong or making "furtive movements" does NOT cut it today. You have to be able to articulate a fact like his license plate light was not working (a favorite) or other factual things. To say he did not look like he belonged is not good enough. Why did he not look like he belonged? What actions made you suspect he was committing an illegal act? You are right it is a very low threashhold, but there is a standard to be met. I would be intrested to see what the cops reason for making contact is. If the fact he was simply walking down the street LEGALLY carring a firearm and can not articulate WHAT illegal action he suspected and WHY the cop could be in deep do do. Now saying that the courts will probably back up the cop.

You are confusing reasonable suspicion to stop someone with probable cause to arrest someone. If I am cruising a neighborhood at 0300 and see someone walking down the street of a neighborhood, I can stop them and talk to them. At this point it is a field interview. The person does not have to stop nor talk to me, but I can walk with them and talk to them all I want.

As for this case, a person openly carrying a firearm in this particular area was suspicious in the officer's mind as this obviously does not happen often, if at all, in this area. That gave the officer a reason to talk to him. Where the officer went wrong was with his attitude and initial contact methods. If you are looking for the initial contact to be unconstitutional or wrong, it wasn't.

Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968), was a decision by the United States Supreme Court which held that the Fourth Amendment prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures is not violated when a police officer stops a suspect on the street and frisks him without probable cause to arrest, if the police officer has a reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime and has a reasonable belief that the person "may be armed and presently dangerous." (392 U.S. 1, at 30.)

http://supreme.justia.com/constituti...and-frisk.html
This link gives several examples of reasonable suspicion and Terry Stops. Given the incident we are talking about, an initial Terry Stop could be articulated all day. Again, the problem the officer has is that he was unfamiliar with the open carry law and did not appear to listen when told by the suspect that he had a CCW permit. All it would have taken was looking at the permit.

Originally Posted by rdret1

If I am not mistaken, he stated that he had a CCW, which would have covered the concealment. Mistakes were made on both sides apparently.

I've heard of "states" that say in their CCW code, that if you have a permit for CCW, you can not carry open, because the action would be considered 'brandishing'. Or, a man walks into deli, he orders a cup of coffee. He lifts his jacket to reach for his wallet and someone yells, "He's got a gun!"

I'd be the first to turn around to look to see who they're talking about, Shit I think, I hope they're not talking about me?

The purpose of a CCW is to carry a weapon concealed. When I reach for my wallet, I do so, not in a willy nilly manner. Perhaps I place a $5 note in my front pocket before I order my drink. Maybe I'm thinking to much about it, thinking I have to consider every action I take before I take it. Maybe nothing has changed in 100,000 years of mankind walking around. Maybe I should be more concerned about the chandeleier falling on my head, maybe the who damn system is just going to crap, and I should just stay home.

Good thing it's only a permit to carry, not a permit to use.

[sf11b_p]

Seems the individual has been carrying for a year, has been stopped before, had his weapon taken and held for five months after one stop. Maybe that led to carrying a recorder.

Statement here is interesting.

"Our officers weren't up to speed [because] we never really addressed it," said Lt. Francis Healy, the department's lawyer.

"In the last several weeks, we've done a lot of training and put out a lot of information about what is allowed and what's not allowed. Right now, our officers are better-versed on the subject matter."

Healy said he emphasized the importance of officers being polite and professional if they have to stop a person who is legally carrying a firearm.

"You can use caution, but you don't need to curse them up and down and put a gun in their face," he said. - articles.philly.com/2011-05-16/news/29548742_1_firearms-license-youtube-clips-gun-rights

[RB]

Thanks for the correction WCH.....I won't be visiting Pa in the near future.

NC is much much different....

[The Reaper]

I have not worked with a PD in as long time, but when was the last time you saw a criminal carrying a handgun in a holster?

I had a cousin who worked vice almost 30 years. I asked him why he had his weapon stuck in his waistband, and he said that a holster would blow his cover. In the old days, a holster was a tip off that the wearer was either a licensed carrier or a cop.

TR

[rdret1]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

I have not worked with a PD in as long time, but when was the last time you saw a criminal carrying a handgun in a holster?

I had a cousin who worked vice almost 30 years. I asked him why he had his weapon stuck in his waistband, and he said that a holster would blow his cover. In the old days, a holster was a tip off that the wearer was either a licensed carrier or a cop.

TR

For the most part, that is still true today. There is the occassional instance of some mentally disturbed individual who has come into possession of a firearm, domestic situation, etc.

LEOs receive bulletins all of the time with information on gangs of all types. One of the emphasized points is the increased occurrence of gang members (this includes everything from street gangs to outlaw MCs) with military experience and training. This makes a lot of LEOs nervous, especially if they can see a firearm, as they don't have any military experience. A recent bulletin was circulated specifically about NC outlaw MCs. One of the Fayetteville HA members was mentioned by name, whom I happened to work with at one time in SFAS and was former 7th Grp. Because of some recent problems we had in Wilson, I was asked a lot of questions about it to enhance awareness.

If an officer sees a firearm, they are probably going to check the individual out. If that person is legit, there should not be a problem with following instructions until the situation is resolved. The first thought of the officer is not going to be "oh, this guy is carrying, he must have a CCW permit", it is going to be "I see a firearm, I need to see what is going on."

Last year in Denver, with a few friends visiting from out of town, early one morning and without much thought and no other plans we headed out to the range.

Upon returning home, the idea of eating food sounded like a real good idea. I drew short straw to walk the 50' into the Deli and pay for lunch. I chose to leave my weapon in the truck, (because 6 Denver PD traffic motorcycles were parked outside), but I was still wearing boots, pants, holster, and left side ammo pounch.

Upon leaving the counter with 4 sandwhich combos and drinks in hand, the youngest of the officers asked me why I was wearing a holster and ammo pounch. Looking around the table I recognized 4 of the officers, assuming they put the young one up to it in asking the question. I said, "We wanted to eat before we hit the bank accross town, my friends are outside in the truck loading magazines."

His eyes lit up. I'm standing there holding an arm load of food, he doesn't know what to do. A long 5 second pause, the older officers start laughing and introduce me to the kid.

I tell him I can teach him to shoot better. He looks around at his lunch buddies, alot of heads go up and down, and you can hear "Yep", in stero.

[rdret1]

Originally Posted by wet dog

Last year in Denver, with a few friends visiting from out of town, early one morning and without much thought and no other plans we headed out to the range.

Upon returning home, the idea of eating food sounded like a real good idea. I drew short straw to walk the 50' into the Deli and pay for lunch. I chose to leave my weapon in the truck, (because 6 Denver PD traffic motorcycles were parked outside), but I was still wearing boots, pants, holster, and left side ammo pounch.

Upon leaving the counter with 4 sandwhich combos and drinks in hand, the youngest of the officers asked me why I was wearing a holster and ammo pounch. Looking around the table I recognized 4 of the officers, assuming they put the young one up to it in asking the question. I said, "We wanted to eat before we hit the bank accross town, my friends are outside in the truck loading magazines."

His eyes lit up. I'm standing there holding an arm load of food, he doesn't know what to do. A long 5 second pause, the older officers start laughing and introduce me to the kid.

I tell him I can teach him to shoot better. He looks around at his lunch buddies, alot of heads go up and down, and you can hear "Yep", in stero.

That is hilarious!. I bet you could hear the wheels spinning in the kid's head.

Originally Posted by rdret1

That is hilarious!. I bet you could hear the wheels spinning in the kid's head.

The kid was lucky enough to get traffic duty on a big Harley, downtown, pretty girls, summer dresses.

He must've known some one.

Bet in twenty years, he's the chief. He'll go from traffic to detective and never see Five Points or a cruiser.