Shooting with IBA

[Ramirez]

Originally Posted by NoRoadtrippin

Nickel size groups with an M4/AR style weapon at 300m? That's way under MOA. Some pretty impressive shooting for a rifle designed to be a 3-5 MOA weapon.

3-5 MOA? Most I've seen were 1-2MOA.




And yeah nickel groups at 300yards seems like some sharp shooting.

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by Ramirez

3-5 MOA? Most I've seen were 1-2MOA.

Concur. That is unless the particular weapon was severely abused.

[The Reaper]

M855 ammo is not able to reliably produce less than 3 MOA groups. In fact, the AMU has to test a variety of lots to select the most accurate possible for their use. A rack issued service rifle is probably a 2 MOA weapon at best. We won't even get into the error of the optic or fact that the reticle subtends roughly 12" at 300 meters.

The odds of you "consistently" producing five shot groups under 1/3 MOA at 300 yards from the supported prone with an issue rifle and ammunition and a CCO are roughly the same as me consistently winning the next several consecutive Powerball drawings.

I agree, you should quit your day job and start preparing for Camp Perry.

This is not a good place to try and BS people.

TR

[Ramirez]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

M855 ammo is not reliably able to produce less than 3 MOA groups. In fact, the AMU has to test a variety of lots to select the most accurate possible for their use. A rack issued service rifle is probably a 2 MOA weapon at best. We won't even get into the error of the optic or fact that the reticle subtends roughly 12" at 300 meters.

The odds of you "consistently" producing five shot groups under 1/3 MOA at 300 yards from the supported prone with an issue rifle and ammunition and a CCO are roughly the same as me consistently winning the next several consecutive Powerball drawings.

I agree, you should quit your day job and start preparing for Camp Perry.

This is not a good place to try and BS people.

TR

I just ordered 1000 rounds of M855. It's from American Tactical. It should be in this week, I'll chrono it and see how it fairs in groups w/ my 16" DDM4. I'm zeroed at 50 with my eotech, but I've shot it out to 500 yards w/ a 3x magnifier using 75g TAP.

[Buffalobob]

One semi-intelligent thought and one weird piece of advice.

3M tub and shower tape may work as a friction pad. I use it for handles of knives that are too slick when bloody.

It is always wiser to claim to be a poor shot than a good shot. That way on one's bad days, one is still better than what one claimed and on one's good days all the losers have to explain why they got beat by a poor shooter.

[DinDinA-2]

Originally Posted by Buffalobob

It is always wiser to claim to be a poor shot than a good shot. That way on one's bad days, one is still better than what one claimed and on one's good days all the losers have to explain why they got beat by a poor shooter.

Wise advice. I am always amazed by the number of "one hole", "hole in hole", "clover leaf" shooters out there.

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by Ramirez

I just ordered 1000 rounds of M855. It's from American Tactical. It should be in this week, I'll chrono it and see how it fairs in groups w/ my 16" DDM4. I'm zeroed at 50 with my eotech, but I've shot it out to 500 yards w/ a 3x magnifier using 75g TAP.

Ramirez:

It depends. I do not think anyone sells the 855 that is issued because of the tungsten tip. So, the stuff you are getting is probably pure lead core which should give more consistent performance than the issued stuff.

I am convinced that the little tungsten tip in the issued 855, if not very well aligned with the core, causes the problems with that particular round of ammo. Issued barrels, trashed from incessant blasting while conducting SRM, don't help the situation either.

That said, just about any commercially made AR will probably shoot better than its issued counterpart. I mention this because if you do run any tests, your rifle and ammo are probably not representative of the issued side.

My experience with issued M-4's and issued 855 using what ever low power optic Joe has is that given no wind conditions, ideal lighting, ideal contrast between target and background, that this combination is about maxed out at 500 yards on a upper torso size target. Past that and things become more chance than deliberate.

Gene

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by Buffalobob

One semi-intelligent thought and one weird piece of advice.

3M tub and shower tape may work as a friction pad. I use it for handles of knives that are too slick when bloody.

It is always wiser to claim to be a poor shot than a good shot. That way on one's bad days, one is still better than what one claimed and on one's good days all the losers have to explain why they got beat by a poor shooter.

Bob:

Learn something every day. The 3M stuff makes sense.

As for responding to the question about kneeling position, I have gotten some success with Joe's from the kneeling position in relatively short order -- say about a hour. Nothing spectacular and certainly nothing an experienced shooter can't deal with himself. Enough success that the Soldier is confident that he is in control and not the M-4 or A-2.

Why not mention how this can be done? Because I figure that if a guy can shoot even a top end match rifle and ammo that well at 300 then he would have figured out how to be in control of a kneeling position long ago.

Good wisdom -- I think we all learned that one in one form or the other!

Gene

Originally Posted by Buffalobob

One semi-intelligent thought and one weird piece of advice.

3M tub and shower tape may work as a friction pad. I use it for handles of knives that are too slick when bloody.

It is always wiser to claim to be a poor shot than a good shot. That way on one's bad days, one is still better than what one claimed and on one's good days all the losers have to explain why they got beat by a poor shooter.

Never woulda thought of 3M tape, good idea.

Another is finding a local skateboard shop and getting a sheet of there grip tape. I picked up an entire sheet of tape which is something like 3 foot by 1 foot for 5 bucks. It's durabe as hell and it's already dark in color. I feel like someone on this forum gave me the idea so I dont take any credit for it.

[cj13]

We have found in training deploying units, whose marksmanship skills are poor to average at best that firing with an IBA is significantly easier than an IOTV. If you loosen the side straps completely on the shooting side and pull the shoulder of the IBA on that side to the middle of your chest as much as possible, then place the buttstock of the weapon in your shoulder pocket and release the IBA, it will hold the weapon in that place. It should cover a portion of the buttstock and the sling keeper. You may have to roll your shooting side shoulder forward slightly to maintain this position.

Additionally, with the kneeling position pull down slightly on the pistol grip, which will in turn lock your support side elbow into your knee reducing the wobble. A variation which will require more practice, but I have seen it work extremely well is to prop your shooting side knee up instead of the traditional support side, and rest your magazine on that thigh, using your support side hand to maintain the magazine in position on that knee.

I hope this helps, have a great day.

[Ramirez]

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

Ramirez:

It depends. I do not think anyone sells the 855 that is issued because of the tungsten tip. So, the stuff you are getting is probably pure lead core which should give more consistent performance than the issued stuff.

I am convinced that the little tungsten tip in the issued 855, if not very well aligned with the core, causes the problems with that particular round of ammo. Issued barrels, trashed from incessant blasting while conducting SRM, don't help the situation either.

That said, just about any commercially made AR will probably shoot better than its issued counterpart. I mention this because if you do run any tests, your rifle and ammo are probably not representative of the issued side.

My experience with issued M-4's and issued 855 using what ever low power optic Joe has is that given no wind conditions, ideal lighting, ideal contrast between target and background, that this combination is about maxed out at 500 yards on a upper torso size target. Past that and things become more chance than deliberate.

Gene

Thanks for the heads up, this was some dirt cheap stuff I bought for training. It was $259 for 990 rounds.

[Snaquebite]

I've used the 3M "tub tape" and Skate board tape on all sorts of things. From knife handles (like Bob) to butt pads an pistol grips. If you look hard enough you can find it in dark colors even black.

[NoRoadtrippin]

Originally Posted by Ramirez

3-5 MOA? Most I've seen were 1-2MOA.

My OP was based on a comment made by the AWG instructors during CATC at Benning a couple of years ago. It might have been in reference to the contracted margin of error that the weapons are allowed. They might start of a bit better than 3-5. I believe he also meant it to reference the total package. I.e. in conjunction, the weapon, optic, and round is supposed to be a 3-5 minute system. Some of course might get more out of it than others can conjure.

[caveman]

Originally Posted by Gene Econ

Bob:

Learn something every day. The 3M stuff makes sense.

As for responding to the question about kneeling position, I have gotten some success with Joe's from the kneeling position in relatively short order -- say about a hour. Nothing spectacular and certainly nothing an experienced shooter can't deal with himself. Enough success that the Soldier is confident that he is in control and not the M-4 or A-2.

Why not mention how this can be done? Because I figure that if a guy can shoot even a top end match rifle and ammo that well at 300 then he would have figured out how to be in control of a kneeling position long ago.

Good wisdom -- I think we all learned that one in one form or the other!

Gene

Do you think you could PM your method for a stable kneeling position to me? I can maintain a reasonable level of accuracy while kneeling, but never feel stable, comfortable, or in control.

[Iraqgunz]

To the OP. Don't think that this is a dogpile, but I really have to call bullshit on your shooting. You're insulting the intelligence of those of us here who have been and still do shoot alot.

I have been shooting for 25 years. I consistently shoot high with the M16 and was on the battalion rifle team when I was in the Army. I build and work on guns quite a bit and get exposure to alot of shooters and platforms.

I had a Noveske 16" Recon. It was outfitted with a Leupold Mk 4 MR/T with illuminated reticle. Using 75gr. match ammo the best I could do is 1.25 MOA.

If I am not mistaken the dot on the M68 CCO is 4 MOA. I just don't see how you are getting such groups from an M4 with that type of ammo and sight.

If you are doing this consistently then you need to go buy some lottery tickets right now, because your luck is amazing.