Reflection - Page 2

sinjefe · 10-09-2010, 08:33

Harvey actually cites Janis in his article. Great read and point. Perhaps groupthink, as Janis describes it, is a broader symptom of basic human flaws (expressions of fear, conformity, poor communication, apathy, etc). I liked Ambush Master's comments on "out of the box" thinking (a term I can't stand). It is said to give the appearance of unconventional thinking and avoidance of groupthink. Whenever you hear a manger say "we need to think out of the box", look out. However, I don't agree with "add a QP to the mix and groupthink doesn't stand a chance" philosophy. What if the group is made up of QPs? I worked at DOTD 06-08. SWC had been struggling with redefining UW for some time and spent the two years I was there brainstorming it in working groups. That was groupthink on steroids. I rememebr sitting down with my boss (SF LTC) and he "briefed" me on the two years of work spent on the definition of UW. Without going into too many details, I said to him that his definition really looked the same as what it had always been. All they had done was "wordsmithed". He was actually hurt that I couldn't see the substaniatve differences between their work and what it had been. Aaron Banks had to be rolling over in his grave.

lksteve · 10-09-2010, 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by sinjefe

Perhaps groupthink, as Janis describes it, is a broader symptom of basic human flaws (expressions of fear, conformity, poor communication, apathy, etc).

During a brief cycle break in IOBC, we saw the video that accompanied the Abilene Paradox (part of a mandatory week of Organization Effectiveness training as we were standing up a new company). It was absolutely hilarious, especially since one of the other trainers was from that part of Texas (the video had comic details regarding the makeshift swamp cooler and the nature of the meal at the diner and the misery of the trip in the car).

I think the need to conform is one key element. I think command or corporate climate is another. A good deal of group think, from my experience, comes when the older hands try to second guess the boss because they know what makes him tick (sounds cliche because it is damn near verbatim from what I was told a couple of jobs back). Maybe the boss is tyrannical or perhaps he tries to engender a collegial working environment. Once again, from my experience, those extremes tend to create the most fertile environments for group think. Either everyone is afraid to buck the old man or the old man doesn't step forward to break up the party...

And as far as taking two years to rewrite the definintion of UW, it doesn't surprise me...reinventing the wheel is a cumbersome process...it's no better outside the Armed Forces...I was a department head for a company that spent $250K for over a week of blame storming for a corporate five year plan and in the end came away with a mission statement that had nothing to do with the activities of the company and a new logo. It essentially was a feel-good session with old ideas recycled with new words and a lot of self-congratulatory pats on the back. My tendency to comment on the emperor's new garments were noted by the CEO (not favorably) and my comments regarding the mission statement were not appreciated...the boy can retire from SF, but you still can't take him out in public...LOL...

Of course his unease may have been exacerbated when I was asked for a new paradigm and tossed a quarter on the table with a comment to keep the change...along with out of the box, changing paradigms is another expression that needs to go away.

PSM · 10-09-2010, 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambush Master

I then stated that I had not been in such a place since somewhere back around........ 1968!!!

Later
Martin

Was it a Tiger Cage or a buried wall locker at the SEE Prison Camp in AIT?

Pat

Stingray · 10-10-2010, 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenberetTFS

Stringray's panda looks pretty tough, but Richard's panda looks too big and tough for this fight,I'll take Richard's,giving 3-1 odds..........

Big Teddy

Safe bet. My money is on Richard as well. You'll probably have to up the odd's to get any takers.

Guy · 10-10-2010, 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambush Master

Groupthink does not stand a CHANCE if you mix in a QP!!

Groupthink sounds like a new "fad" word for a meeting where you exchange ideas without any results.

"We can talk about this all day however, if we don't anything it ain't nothing but talk."

And trust me, if you do something and it's sucessful...watch out! SOBs will ride that train until it dies.

Stay safe.

lksteve · 10-10-2010, 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guy

Groupthink sounds like a new "fad" word for a meeting where you exchange ideas without any results

The term has been around quite awhile...

nmap · 10-10-2010, 12:09

So, in an attempt to conform (

) to the consensus view, I accept that groupthink is always bad. And yet, numerous examples suggest it is common throughout organizations in every part of society. This leads to a serious question - if groupthink is bad, why do people keep doing it?

What is bad? For now, I suppose it means that we get results that are worse than if we didn't engage in the behavior.
Is it the bacon cheeseburger syndrome? We know it will have bad effects at some point, but it's really pleasant going down. And yet, who really likes meetings?
Or, is the desire to conform, and to be a part of a group, so strong that we choose to be agreeable ahead of all other choices?
Or, perhaps our internal calculator determines that there is little risk in nodding sagely, agreeing with everyone else, and avoiding original thought? In essence, slacking off is the predominant factor in determining human behavior in such settings.

Surely there must be reasons better than anything I've come up with. I wonder what they might be.

Ret10Echo · 10-10-2010, 12:23

A disturbing trend I have been witness to is the government version of groupthink otherwise known as a committee...focus group...work group...etc.

Why are these "groups" put together to formulate bad decisions:

Because there is nowhere to hang blame. Everyone in the group has deniability for being the decision maker.

It is safe haven for the risk averse.

My .02

R10

sinjefe · 10-10-2010, 15:48

Interesting point, R10. I think you are right about the working group and that ties in to nmap's comment about why do we do it. In the military, it may be that anything outside the norm really is not desired. Having participated in those WG's, groupthink is never even considered, they are so focused on re-inventing the wheel because that is what the boss asked for. As far as individuals are considered, they/we keep doing it because groupthink, just like critical thinking, is not necessarily a natural state of being. It is learned.

Green Light · 10-10-2010, 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ret10Echo

A disturbing trend I have been witness to is the government version of groupthink otherwise known as a committee...focus group...work group...etc.

Why are these "groups" put together to formulate bad decisions:

Because there is nowhere to hang blame. Everyone in the group has deniability for being the decision maker.

It is safe haven for the risk averse.

My .02

R10

I was a stand-in on a working group about a month ago. (This is no exaggeration): They were finishing the charter for the working group - 9 months of work.

Dozer523 · 10-10-2010, 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by lksteve

Hmm...I have visions of the Abilene Paradox all over again...

http://www.xecu.net/schaller/management/abilene.pdf

When I went to CAS Cubed this video was one of the first classes we received.
We loved it.
Our FA was so pleased.

Our class motto was "GET ON THE BUS."

lksteve · 10-10-2010, 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dozer523

When I went to CAS Cubed this video was one of the first classes we received.

That was the second time I encountered it...it was better when viewed with a half dozen tired, burned out platoon trainers...CAS Cubed folks were all civilized and Quartermaster and AG and stuff like that...and John P., a QP from Bangs, TX wasn't there to point out some of the finer details...

Our class motto was "Bump, Set, Spike"...

dennisw · 10-10-2010, 22:47

Sounds like Orc talk.

Guy · 10-10-2010, 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by lksteve

The term has been around quite awhile...

All I'm going to say is...SYNONYM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ret10Echo

A disturbing trend I have been witness to is the government version of groupthink otherwise known as a committee...focus group...work group...etc.

Why are these "groups" put together to formulate bad decisions:

Because there is nowhere to hang blame. Everyone in the group has deniability for being the decision maker.

It is safe haven for the risk averse.

My .02

R10

Good copy!

Stay safe.

Utah Bob · 10-11-2010, 16:37

I'm reminded of the Challenger disaster. Group think can kill.
I was required to study it in a senior leadership class a few years ago.
No survivors there.

I meant the shuttle, not the class. There were actually several survivors of the class.