General: Drop Bayonet From Army Training

[mark46th]

Well, The guys can take a roll of duct tape and tape their Yarborough Knives to their rifles....

[Dragbag036]

Well I remember about 20 years ago, when Drill Sgt Hughs said "sound off with what you want to be in the future?" we replied "Expert Infantry" then he said spirit of the bayonet and we said "to kill, to kill with cold blue steel" he replied "whirl......whirl....."

WTF....what is up with the future of our forces? Has everyone gone mad? Jihadis, (like Charlie) are out there training, and we are trying to get out of it. Playing Call of Duty 2 is not going to make the American soldier harder, the occasional trip off the couch doesn't prepare you to hump a ruck in any environment.

my .00002 cents

[Richard]

One question, but if the bayonet training is removed, couldn't individual units just teach it to their soldiers?

Never been in a line unit, have you - prioritization of 'must do' tasks from higher HQs would normally mean bayonet training would be taught...about never.

Richard's jaded $.02

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by greenberetTFS

I wish it was possible to sent this to that General's email or facebook or what ever to let him see it's still possible to use the bayonet in combat..... Any ideas of how this might be done?

FWIW,

TRADOC Public Affairs, monr-tradocpao@conus.army.mil

We do respond to email inquiries if they are appropriate inquiries. We will acknowledge that we have received your email, and what initial action we are taking with it, within two business days. Response time to resolve the issue will depend on the issue, but we pledge to give the matter the attention it warrants.

And http://twitter.com/mark_hertling

And http://www.facebook.com/people/Mark-...00000496844767

HTH.

[AngelsSix]

Okay, I am going to get my ass kicked for this...but I AM Air Force, so deal with it...

Why do you need a bayonet if you have bullets? If you run out of bullets and the other guy has bullets, he is going to shoot you and kill you...and take your bayonet as a souvenir.

As a cop I was taught to never let anyone get remotely close to me when armed. I realize that it is nothing like infantry, but I would think the principle is the same.

On that note, why are we teaching soldiers about bayonets? Do we fight from trenches anymore? We are pretty mechanized these days. What is the honest to G-d chance that some poor Joe will actually need a bayonet?

When we go to the range, there are guys and gals that CANNOT REMEMBER HOW TO LOAD OR CLEAR THEIR RIFLES ON HOUR AFTER THE LESSON IN THE CLASSROOM!! These same people cannot function under a tiny bit of stress at a range on base, what makes anyone expect that these same troops can do anything in combat? Forget about fixing a bayonet!


Jus' sayin'.......

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by Richard

Never been in a line unit, have you - prioritization of 'must do' tasks from higher HQs would normally mean bayonet training would be taught...about never.

jaded $.02

Bayonet training makes excellent PT, if incorporated with rifle drill...I've done that as a company commander...truth be told, 20 years ago, when I was commanding an infantry company in Alaska, our bayonet range was in pretty bad repair...I doubt that anyone above me in the chain of command would have objected had I substituted bayonet training for the daily dozen...but that was (over) twenty years ago...

What concerns me is that a general officer who would have been a peer at times in my career feels that bayonet training has no military application...in my opinion, neither does running in formation, but I'd bet a week's pay he's big into that...probably a big proponent of COO, as well...

[alelks]

Originally Posted by AngelsSix

Okay, I am going to get my ass kicked for this...but I AM Air Force, so deal with it...

Why do you need a bayonet if you have bullets? If you run out of bullets and the other guy has bullets, he is going to shoot you and kill you...and take your bayonet as a souvenir.

As a cop I was taught to never let anyone get remotely close to me when armed. I realize that it is nothing like infantry, but I would think the principle is the same.

On that note, why are we teaching soldiers about bayonets? Do we fight from trenches anymore? We are pretty mechanized these days. What is the honest to G-d chance that some poor Joe will actually need a bayonet?

When we go to the range, there are guys and gals that CANNOT REMEMBER HOW TO LOAD OR CLEAR THEIR RIFLES ON HOUR AFTER THE LESSON IN THE CLASSROOM!! These same people cannot function under a tiny bit of stress at a range on base, what makes anyone expect that these same troops can do anything in combat? Forget about fixing a bayonet!


Jus' sayin'.......

And those are the people who will be lying on the ground dead if it comes to hand to hand. If I'm out of bullets I want to be able to do more than punch, kick and bite someone. Give me knife, club, 2x4, E-tool. I'm going out fighting and I'm taking as many of those bastards out as I can before I go down. SOBs aren't getting a chance to cut my head off with a dull knife.


This General most likely thinks you need to spit shine your boots in the field too. God knows you have to look good while shooting at someone just in case there is a reporter around or a visiting dignitary.

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by AngelsSix

Why do you need a bayonet if you have bullets? If you run out of bullets and the other guy has bullets, he is going to shoot you and kill you...and take your bayonet as a souvenir.

Let's say you do not wish to shoot your adversary because you don't want to wake up his buddies...bayonets are handy for that...and just if the other guy has bullets and you don't, you can still steal the intiative with a bayonet in close quarters...

Originally Posted by AngelsSix

As a cop I was taught to never let anyone get remotely close to me when armed. I realize that it is nothing like infantry, but I would think the principle is the same.

I'm not a cop...never been one, ain't never gonna be one...but I've been an infantryman, my dad was an infantryman and I know for a fact that sometimes the bad guys get real close to you, in spite of your effots to the contrary...the mission of the infantry is to close with and destroy the enemy by means of fire and manuever...the very definition lends itself to close combat...cop-infantry not same-same...

Originally Posted by AngelsSix

On that note, why are we teaching soldiers about bayonets? Do we fight from trenches anymore? We are pretty mechanized these days. What is the honest to G-d chance that some poor Joe will actually need a bayonet?

We encountered tunnels and trenches in Vietnam...caves in Afghanistan...
To paraphrase an old adage, professional soldiers are predictable but wars are fought by amateurs...and since that will always be the case, I vote for having a bayonet...
We train soldiers in hand to hand and I don't see that on the cut list...and bayonet training does instill a sense of urgency in troops, if done properly...

[Dragbag036]

Originally Posted by lksteve

Bayonet training makes excellent PT, if incorporated with rifle drill...I've done that as a company commander...truth be told, 20 years ago, when I was commanding an infantry company in Alaska, our bayonet range was in pretty bad repair...I doubt that anyone above me in the chain of command would have objected had I substituted bayonet training for the daily dozen...but that was (over) twenty years ago...

What concerns me is that a general officer who would have been a peer at times in my career feels that bayonet training has no military application...in my opinion, neither does running in formation, but I'd bet a week's pay he's big into that...probably a big proponent of COO, as well...

Not only does it make for excellent pt, but it is also a psych thing. Who here, who was infantry, and did not let your mind run free and actually imagine stabbing someone with your bayonet when you were in basic? Just like we changed targets from circles to actual silhouettes to increase the ability of the American Soldier to not just squeeze the trigger, but to aim and kill the enemy combatant. On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society ~Dave Grossman (Author). Sometimes people kill because they are afraid, but also it is the pursuit to ingrain the training for whatever task, to make it where the brain has some sort of experience to fall back on in the time of crisis. Does that mean that it is second nature...no. We know it takes 1000's of time to do that, but if you have done something before, or even come into contact with it, the brain recognizes it and processes it to give you the ability to visualize the outcome and decide a course of action.

[Utah Bob]

Originally Posted by AngelsSix

Okay, I am going to get my ass kicked for this...but I AM Air Force, so deal with it...

Why do you need a bayonet if you have bullets? If you run out of bullets and the other guy has bullets, he is going to shoot you and kill you...and take your bayonet as a souvenir.

As a cop I was taught to never let anyone get remotely close to me when armed. I realize that it is nothing like infantry, but I would think the principle is the same.

On that note, why are we teaching soldiers about bayonets? Do we fight from trenches anymore? We are pretty mechanized these days. What is the honest to G-d chance that some poor Joe will actually need a bayonet?

When we go to the range, there are guys and gals that CANNOT REMEMBER HOW TO LOAD OR CLEAR THEIR RIFLES ON HOUR AFTER THE LESSON IN THE CLASSROOM!! These same people cannot function under a tiny bit of stress at a range on base, what makes anyone expect that these same troops can do anything in combat? Forget about fixing a bayonet!


Jus' sayin'.......

Ground combat is still a dirty brutal business despite the marvelous armored things, UAVs, and artillery.
When you're in a cave or a house and you just expended a mag on three bad guys and a fourth rushes you it's nice to have a blade on the end of your thunderstick. Even if the other guy has bullets you still have a fighting chance.

I've been a cop and am well aware of the "Don't let anyone get inside your reactionary gap" philosophy. In a war, that just doesn't work. Trust me.
The parallels between being a street cop and a combat soldier are few.
Cops apprehend. Soldiers kill.
The bayonet is still a viable weapon in those nasty bloody places where men fight to the death in close quarters.

I would agree that bayonet training is probably not necessary..........for the Air Force.

[craigepo]

Angel Six---good question

Initially, let me begin by saying thank you for your service, both as a law enforcement officer and in the Air Force.

My explanation regarding the necessity of bayonet training lies in the fact that the Army's mission differs greatly from either law enforcement or the Air Force. When I was in the Army, the Army's mission was, essentially, to move to, close with, and destroy the enemy by means of fire and manuever. Clearly, law enforcement has no such mission, and inasmuch as the Air Force has a similar mission, that mission is conducted in the air, not on the ground.

While technology has greatly evolved since the beginning of warfare, one thing remains the same: we do not hold a piece of ground until we have a soldier standing upon that piece of ground, guarding it with a rifle.

We issue our soldiers tools a.k.a. weapons, to help them complete their mission. Again, technology is great, and our warfighting technology is superb. However, what good is close-air support during a storm that reduces visibility to zero? Similarly, what good is a rifle when you have run out of bullets, or it is totally jammed?

You state that if the bad guys have ammo, and we don't, bad guys win. Sometimes. However, let me remind you of Colonel Chamberlain's bayonet charge at the battle of Gettysburg. His unit had held the high ground, facing down assault after assault, until they simply ran out of ammo. At the next Confederate attack, Chamberlain led a bayonet charge that routed the enemy, held the ground(and the Union flank), and killed or captured a large number of Confederate troops. Chamberlain won the Medal of Honor thereafter(I believe this was the fight at Little Round Top, but it has been a while).

Soldiers must plan for contingencies, because they DO happen. Guns fail, radios fail, vehicles fail. However, our soldiers cannot. When a soldier is given a mission, that must be his all-important task; his life is secondary to the accomplishment thereof. Necessarily, whether defending or attacking, he must be prepared to, among other things, fight in a situation where his primary weapon(rifle, machine gun, or other) is no longer workable. At that point in time, bayonet fighting becomes a necessity.

Moreover, Army missions involve killing, often at uncomfortably close distances. Again, this is where a bayonet, and bayonet training, may become relevant. Our military today is amazingly effective. Our ability to neutralize enemy troops from stand-off distances is unmatched. However, there is now, and forever will be, the necessity to field troops who are able to fight "up close and personal". We ignore these uncomfortable truths at our own peril.

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by Utah Bob

I would agree that bayonet training is probably not necessary..........for the Air Force.

Dunno...I think there's a bayonet stud on a GAU 8...

Originally Posted by AngelsSix

Okay, I am going to get my ass kicked for this...but I AM Air Force, so deal with it...

Why do you need a bayonet if you have bullets? If you run out of bullets and the other guy has bullets, he is going to shoot you and kill you...and take your bayonet as a souvenir.

As a cop I was taught to never let anyone get remotely close to me when armed. I realize that it is nothing like infantry, but I would think the principle is the same.

On that note, why are we teaching soldiers about bayonets? Do we fight from trenches anymore? We are pretty mechanized these days. What is the honest to G-d chance that some poor Joe will actually need a bayonet?

When we go to the range, there are guys and gals that CANNOT REMEMBER HOW TO LOAD OR CLEAR THEIR RIFLES ON HOUR AFTER THE LESSON IN THE CLASSROOM!! These same people cannot function under a tiny bit of stress at a range on base, what makes anyone expect that these same troops can do anything in combat? Forget about fixing a bayonet!


Jus' sayin'.......

From personal experience, a modern battle can still be a "personal" thing.

[CSM-H]

Like lksteve said; "Armor officer", CSA/SMA which also brought you the black beret. CSM-H

Originally Posted by lksteve

Armor officer....

[lksteve]

Originally Posted by Broadsword2004

nteresting how in the course of military history, many weapons that at first are thought to be completely useless turn out to be indispensible, while weapons that are indispensible many start thinking are no longer necessary.

You mean like SF guys on horseback in Afghanistan?