Fine, I'll bring the stirring stick

[Gypsy]

I'm against it for many of the reasons already expressed here. As a recruiter I feel a certain pressure when a client will continue to stress their "diversity" requirements and I don't like it. I believe the most qualified person should be hired for the job regardless of the color of their skin or their sex. (male/female not orientation)

[Ockham's Razor]

Against. It seems to have done it's job. The barriers have been broken for years. It's not odd to find a member of any ethnic group to be at all levels of public and private corporations. The idea was to break down the barriers and make things more open and fair to all groups, correct? Well, I think we are there now, and it's time to go back to strictly earning such positions, or slots at school based upon merit, or nepotism.

[longrange1947]

I find diversity to be the liberal calling for keeping "Affirmative Action". It is over rated as a general rule.

Now when a group is dealing with another group, then it is nice to have a memeber of that group for counsel.

However, if I am to stay on the diversity side then I would need to hire atleast one Chinese, one Japanese, one Indian, one Arab, etc. Why does diversity only seem to mean members of one group? Why do I need to set up one group for failure in the name of diversity/affirmative action?

Example, my daughter and her friend both applied to Chapel Hill. My daughter was not picked even though she had higher grades, more extra activities, etc. My daughter went to UNCW and graduated. My daughter's friend went to Chapel Hill based on Affirmative Action/Diversity. My daughter's friend realy was not prepared to go to that school, and she failed out her freshman year. She now considers herself a failure. Did Affirmative action do anything other then get the numbers up for the incoming class? Yes, it set up a young woman for failure.

[Guy]

Just another way for people to get over!

Every job/occupation has it standards/quals...either meet them or exceed them and you will do just well.

[CRad]

Originally posted by longrange1947
I find diversity to be the liberal calling for keeping "Affirmative Action". It is over rated as a general rule.

Now when a group is dealing with another group, then it is nice to have a memeber of that group for counsel.

Ignoring affirmative action and talking only about diversity, when soldiers from a different country come here and train with our guys or vice-versa, would you call that diversity? Is it beneficial?

[NousDefionsDoc]

I'm for it, in a radically different form than it is now.

I agree with CRad, D9 and The Reaper. I also like what RL had to say.

NBG - as a white male from RI, you can't say the "barriers have been broken for years." There are still barriers, in the South, "things" are understood. Usually those "things" involve demarcation by railroad tracks, believe it or not. They don't use the GS dogs and water hoses too much anymore, but the barriers still exist. Look at the conflict and comments made when someone goes over that invisible line. The only ones that can say the barriers have been broken are those pushing against them.

I agree with TR, the military in general and SF in particular are based on skill more than probably any other place I've ever seen. One of the best medics and finest soldiers I ever served with was not a WASP. I don't know what he was, I never asked. But it is still noticeable, obviously. I have never met Guy, but I know he is not a WASP - why do I know that? How do I know that? I think DD (?) is of Chinese descent because he mentioned it once. I know about Guy because of what others have posted. Until we habitually say "You know, Bob Smith, SF Medic?" instead of "You know, Bob Smith, that Black/Chinese/Mexican SF Medic?" We're not there.

I think diversity still needs a push sometimes. Hell, if I was still in, there's a chance I could be SMA or at least USASOC CSM (LOL) - and I can remember when the schools were integrated, when there were separate drinking fountains in the county courthouse and when we had separate swiiming pools. One hour a quarter in "Living with Others" class isn't going to erase all that.

Group dynamics. We have a tendency to want to fit in, so we seek groups that facilitate that. I fit in better with rednecks from the South better than with black men from NYC. Left to my own devices and military experience taken out of the equation, I would probably not have allowed myself the opportunity to meet Guy, DD (I think I have the right guy here) and some others on this board. And that would be my loss. I definitely would not have made cyber friends with the lawyers - they need AA and an expense account to get people to talk to them.

What I don't believe in are quotas. I think that given an even playing field in the beginning with a mechanism to override preconceived notions due to race that merit should be the discriminator. But until we can honestly judge people as they are, at this time and in this place - without those preconceived notions, we still need a mechanism that forces us to at least take a look.

Most of this discussion appear to address the black community - what about discrimination yet to come? There will always be somebody new to hate.

I do agree that AA and diversity are used as political tools to "control" blocks of votes and in its present form, it does more harm than good. Especially to the very groups it proposes to protect.

I am the minority down here. I'm the "Spic". And you know what, its been an eye opener from day one. Everything takes me twice as long. I had to put my business in my wife's name because Gringos can't own security companies - we're not trustworthy (can't swim, can't see well in the dark, can't do math - sound familiar?) People assume I am very wealthy because of the color of my skin - I am at a higher risk of kidnapping because of it. People assume I work for the Embassy because I'm a white boy. I get called Gringo, Mono, etc., even by little kids. People I don't know speak to me like I'm retarded because they assume I don't speak Spanish well enough to understand a normal conversation. My wife and her family used to put their hands out to keep me from crossing the street because they thought I didn't know how to do it, down here. I accept it because there's 44 million of them and one of me. And its their AO.

So, I am in favor of diversity in schools, maybe up to and including college. After that, you've had your playing field evened and need to make it on your own. I am in favor of diversity in civil government - without it, you run the risk of oppression and having a government that is not representative. I am not in favor of forced diversity in the workplace or the military.

Just .02 pesos from a White Boy livin' in a Salsa World.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Nice stick BTW, RL.

[CRad]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc


So, I am in favor of diversity in schools, maybe up to and including college. After that, you've had your playing field evened and need to make it on your own. I am in favor of diversity in civil government - without it, you run the risk of oppression and having a government that is not representative. I am not in favor of forced diversity in the workplace or the military.

Just .02 pesos from a White Boy livin' in a Salsa World.

Those are ideas I can get behind especially the being on your own after school. If you still have problems reaching your potential then the problem is likely you and not the system. Good point on the government. I hadn't thought of that.

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc

Most of this discussion appear to address the black community - what about discrimination yet to come? There will always be somebody new to hate.

That is the very thing that affirmative action, the race card, the Jesse Jacksons of the world... have stifled.

Historically, there was always somebody new to hate. And when that someone showed up, the previous hated became accepted. Irish, Italians, Chinese, etc.

But affirmative action solidifies that position. No more of a new group displacing the old. New groups just get added.

I'm one who is more comfortable with the boys up on West 106th Street than I am with rednecks in Georgia... but I'm living in Thailand, and making my own way on my own accord, regardless of discrimination (and it's here, just like it's there...but I don't want affirmative action in any manner, not for me or my daughter). We make it on our own terms. And that just earns that much more respect.

[Valhal]

I think AA is the child of something more devious and undermining. Political Correctness. PC has to be the one invention of modern society that could ultimately destroy us. I know, pretty dramatic statement, maybe a little too dramatic, but consider the influence of PC together with the power of today's mass media. There is an incredible pressure to think and act a certain way. PC invented AA but is its agenda really to promote diversity? Or is it a means of covertly coercing diversity into one thought. No, I'm not a conspiracy theorist. Just some observations.

Mark

[The Reaper]

NDD:

Your example appears flawed.

You are the living in a society that currently discriminates against you because of your nationality, not really your race or ethnicity. Canadians would probably get the same there, so "Norte Americanos".

There is no AA or diversity issue in your example.

Let's say that the CO or EC Government decided to give gringos and their kids preferential admission to schools, favored status foir hiring, preferential treatment for contracts, established diversity laws requiring institutions and businesses to have a certain minimum number of Gringo employees, and punished those who did not comply, then you would have an AA or diversity situation.

Back to reality, do you see those governments giving benefits to Indios because of past discrimination and maltreatment of them?

Good discussion, BTW.

TR

[cernunnos]

Originally posted by Surgicalcric
Just when would that "time" have been?

It has always been a means of making others feel inadequate because of their race. Nothing has changed and nothing is going to change. Programs, regardless of their intent, will never replace drive.

JD

---------------------------------

Mid to late 60's. I give it credit for providing legitimacy and some impetus to the civil rights movement.

There were/are certainly abuses, there are any any system. I think the concept should be overhauled completely, but it should
exist in some form.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally posted by Greenhat
That is the very thing that affirmative action, the race card, the Jesse Jacksons of the world... have stifled.

Historically, there was always somebody new to hate. And when that someone showed up, the previous hated became accepted. Irish, Italians, Chinese, etc.

But affirmative action solidifies that position. No more of a new group displacing the old. New groups just get added.

I'm one who is more comfortable with the boys up on West 106th Street than I am with rednecks in Georgia... but I'm living in Thailand, and making my own way on my own accord, regardless of discrimination (and it's here, just like it's there...but I don't want affirmative action in any manner, not for me or my daughter). We make it on our own terms. And that just earns that much more respect.

Excellent points.

[NousDefionsDoc]

You are the living in a society that currently discriminates against you because of your nationality, not really your race or ethnicity. Canadians would probably get the same there, so "Norte Americanos".

No, not nationality. They treat all caucasions the same, although they seem to be a little more tolerant of the British, probably Europhilia.

With the other, the difference is the black people in the US are born there. I'm not really following you.

Back to reality, do you see those governments giving benefits to Indios because of past discrimination and maltreatment of them?

Yes. I estimate they are in the pendulum swing we had in the 1970s. Ecuador more so than Colombia. In Ecuador, there is a law that if you have X number of employees, you have to hire an indig and they must be permitted to wear traditional garb. Bolivar and his boys basically wiped out the indig population in Colombia, so it is less of an issue. Most countries are much more AA with regards to the indig now - they are running Bolivia and less so Peru.

[Ockham's Razor]

NDD- Fair enough. I'm a whitey from up North. However, can I qualify my reasoning with the fact that when my father was with AT&T middle-mangement he was taken aside by a Senior VP and told he was not going to be promoted for at least 10 years because he was not black and was not female? This was in the early 80's.

Are we going to have a strict distinction between AA and Diversity? Because I agree with diversity, just not the forced implementation of it through AA.