Obama wants “non-religious Christmas”?

[FirstClass]

What a very bland man. "Neither scalding hot, nor freezing cold, but lukewarm so that I must spit him out and be disgusted." Reminds me of todays cinema, when something appeals to everyone, it has no heart or soul.

[Daweism]

What happened to Generals becoming Presidents? We need someone with a set of all American balls with the integrity and honor to go with it.

I'm not huge on politics but when Obama first began his campaign, I thought to myself what a charismatic and fresh figure. I was led to believe he would bring about change for the good and improve America. I was deceived.

How can your have a Christmas without Jesus, it is after all the celebration of the Savior's date of birth.

[Warrior-Mentor]

Originally Posted by Daweism

What happened to Generals becoming Presidents? We need someone with a set of all American balls with the integrity and honor to go with it.

I'm not huge on politics but when Obama first began his campaign, I thought to myself what a charismatic and fresh figure. I was led to believe he would bring about change for the good and improve America. I was deceived.

How can your have a Christmas without Jesus, it is after all the celebration of the Savior's date of birth.

You weren't the only one. I have come to wonder, is the best title for Obama "The Great Deceiver"?

Did you get the invitation I sent you?

It's for your birthday party.

Oh, wait, you're not invited. Don't worry, it's the thought that counts. We'll be thinking about you. NOT!

[HOLLiS]

From Palmed beach sandy shores, all I have to say is, Mele Kalikimaka.

Maybe that will get pass the Obama's PC censors.

[Richard]

As authored by Ths Jefferson and enacted by the VA Legislature16 Jan 1786 - still on the books as The Virginia Statute For Religious Freedom.

An Act for establishing religious Freedom.

Whereas, Almighty God hath created the mind free; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens, or by civil incapacitations tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, who being Lord, both of body and mind yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do, that the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavouring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time; that to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves is sinful and tyrannical; that even the forcing him to support this or that teacher of his own religious persuasion is depriving him of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor, whose morals he would make his pattern, and whose powers he feels most persuasive to righteousness, and is withdrawing from the Ministry those temporary rewards, which, proceeding from an approbation of their personal conduct are an additional incitement to earnest and unremitting labours for the instruction of mankind; that our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions any more than our opinions in physics or geometry, that therefore the proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence, by laying upon him an incapacity of being called to offices of trust and emolument, unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opinion, is depriving him injuriously of those privileges and advantages, to which, in common with his fellow citizens, he has a natural right, that it tends only to corrupt the principles of that very Religion it is meant to encourage, by bribing with a monopoly of worldly honours and emoluments those who will externally profess and conform to it; that though indeed, these are criminal who do not withstand such temptation, yet neither are those innocent who lay the bait in their way; that to suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous fallacy which at once destroys all religious liberty because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own; that it is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government, for its officers to interfere when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order; and finally, that Truth is great, and will prevail if left to herself, that she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict, unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons free argument and debate, errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them: Be it enacted by General Assembly that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of Religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge or affect their civil capacities. And though we well know that this Assembly elected by the people for the ordinary purposes of Legislation only, have no power to restrain the acts of succeeding Assemblies constituted with powers equal to our own, and that therefore to declare this act irrevocable would be of no effect in law; yet we are free to declare, and do declare that the rights hereby asserted, are of the natural rights of mankind, and that if any act shall be hereafter passed to repeal the present or to narrow its operation, such act will be an infringement of natural right.

And its influence upon the US Constitution:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

As the representative of the many peoples of this country and their numerous religious beliefs - celebrating the 'holiday season' as the POTUS vs the person must be hell...ask President Bush about the flak he took for his 'holiday' cards.

What's missing from the White House Christmas card? Christmas.

This month, as in every December since he took office, President Bush sent out cards with a generic end-of-the-year message, wishing 1.4 million of his close friends and supporters a happy "holiday season."

Many people are thrilled to get a White House Christmas card, no matter what the greeting inside. But some conservative Christians are reacting as if Bush stuck coal in their stockings.

"This clearly demonstrates that the Bush administration has suffered a loss of will and that they have capitulated to the worst elements in our culture," said William A. Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...120601900.html

However...YMMV...just don't tell me how I must celebrate the season.

Richard's jaded $.02

[Warrior-Mentor]

Originally Posted by Richard

However...YMMV...just don't tell me how I must celebrate the season.

Richard's jaded $.02

Richard - Here get yourself a Christmas Present:

http://www.amazon.com/Rediscovering-...0381764&sr=1-2

If you don't want to buy it, take a walk around DC or flip through a copy at the book store or library. Take a look at the pictures. Look at the Supreme Court, the Capitol, the House floor...and the rest of the major Government facilities in OUR Nation's Capitol.

Here, take a look:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...%3Den%26um%3D1

Now, go get your sandblaster...

Story:
Gingrich Finds God in Washington

By Mike Allen
Monday, January 10, 2005; Page A07

Former House speaker Newt Gingrich says he "got fed up with people who argue that somehow the concept of the creator wasn't central to how the Founding Fathers understood America." So in a book being published today, he includes a 19-page "Walking Tour of God in Washington, D.C.," cataloging references to the Bible, Moses and a heavenly father on the Capitol, monuments and memorials.

"In the last 30 years, you had this politically correct delegitimizing of God in American public life, which I think is a denial of the core of American civilization," he said in a telephone interview yesterday.

In his new tome, former White House press secretary Ari Fleischer finds media biased toward conflict.

The book, "Winning the Future: A 21st Century Contract with America," offers a different prescription for Social Security than the one the White House is promoting to pay for the transition to private accounts for younger workers. "I do not believe you can build a majority in this country for cutting benefits," Gingrich said. He calls for shoring up the system by building an off-budget sinking fund over 30 years, likening the idea to a home mortgage.

Gingrich's book tour includes stops in Iowa and New Hampshire, and the Georgia Republican has encouraged speculation that he might run for president in 2008. His official position is that he is not ruling it out. "If you wanted to shape language and ideas in American politics, where are the two places you'd most want to go?" he said. "If I can get the Des Moines Register and the Manchester Union Leader asking the right questions, I've won half the fight."

SOURCE:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2005Jan9.html

[olhamada]

How much you wanna bet he celebrates Kwanzaa?

[Richard]

But whose God?

I am well aware of the presence of both religious and pagan symbolic references found in great quantity throughout our nation's Capitol - however - as demonstrated - it is patently obvious there remain many who will seek to claim them solely for their own purposes whenever convenient.

As noted by our so-called Founding Fathers in the Declaration of Independence -

...to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them...

...all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights...

- and in the US Constitution -

...but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

...Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven ...

Q: So - exactly whose God is being referenced in the House chamber picture?

A:

Richard's $.02

[Warrior-Mentor]

Originally Posted by Richard

But whose God?

I am well aware of the presence of both religious and pagan symbolic references found in great quantity throughout our nation's Capitol - however - as demonstrated - it is patently obvious there remain many who will seek to claim them solely for their own purposes whenever convenient.

As noted by our so-called Founding Fathers in the Declaration of Independence -

...to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them...

...all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights...

- and in the US Constitution -

...but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

...Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven ...

Q: So - exactly whose God is being referenced in the House chamber picture?

A:

Richard's $.02

For starters, it has ALWAYS been "God" and NEVER "Allah."

So that rules out the moon god.

And despite the bile that Obama spews, we are a nation founded on Judeo-Christian values.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Richard

But whose God?

I am well aware of the presence of both religious and pagan symbolic references found in great quantity throughout our nation's Capitol - however - as demonstrated - it is patently obvious there remain many who will seek to claim them solely for their own purposes whenever convenient.

As noted by our so-called Founding Fathers in the Declaration of Independence -

...to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them...

...all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights...

- and in the US Constitution -

...but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

...Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven ...

Q: So - exactly whose God is being referenced in the House chamber picture?

A:

Richard's $.02

IIRC, the use of the B.C. and A.D. dating system is not a Muslim (or Jewish) thing and is a Christian tradition.

TR

[Warrior-Mentor]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

IIRC, the use of the B.C. and A.D. dating system is not a Muslim (or Jewish)thing and is a Christian tradition.

TR

You recall correctly.

Summary of the secular time agenda below:

CE stands for "Common Era." It is a relatively old term that is experiencing rapidly increased usage in recent years. It is expected to eventually replace AD. The latter is an abbreviation for "Anno Domini" in Latin or "the year of the Lord" in English. The latter refers to the approximate birth year of Yeshua of Nazareth (a.k.a. Jesus Christ). CE and AD have the same and value. 2004 CE = 2004 AD. The word "common" simply means that it is based on the most frequently used calendar system: the Gregorian Calendar.

BCE stands for "Before the common era." It is expected to eventually replace BC, which means "Before Christ," or "Before the Messiah." Years in the BC and BCE notation are also identical in value. Most theologians and religious historians believe that the approximate birth date of Yeshua of Nazareth (Jesus) was in the fall of a year, sometime between 7 and 4 BCE. However, we have seen estimates as late as 4 CE and as early as the second century BCE.

Of course, one can always interpret the letter "C" in CE and BCE as referring to "Christian" or "Christ's" The Abbreviations Dictionary does exactly this. 1 The "C" has also been interpreted as "Current."

SOURCE:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ce.htm

There are islamic prophecies about the changing of time...will need to dig back into the books to find the quote...but it portends the end of days...

[Richard]

God must be upset over having wasted a perfectly good apple!

...וכך זה הולך

Richard's $.02

[PedOncoDoc]

Originally Posted by Warrior-Mentor

BC, which means "Before Christ,"or "Before the Messiah."

Thank God we didn't go with BM on that one...

Years in the BC and BCE notation are also identical in value. Most theologians and religious historians believe that the approximate birth date of Yeshua of Nazareth (Jesus) was in the fall of a year, sometime between 7 and 4 BCE. However, we have seen estimates as late as 4 CE and as early as the second century BCE.

There are plenty of different theories on the precise date of birth of Yeshua bin Yosef, many of them dating from 6 to 3BC and coordinate with back-calculated astronomical data to support the visint of the Magi after seeing the Star of Bethlehem. As mentioned above, some estimates place the birth as late as 75 AD. A Google search of any variation on "astrology birth of Christ" will guide you to varying theories.

The modern Christmas celebration is on December 25th, some people report that Jupiter was visible to the Magi on this date in 2 BC after Jesus's birth. Other historians claim the Christians adopted this date to coincide with a Pagan feast holiday to facilitate indoctrination/conversion of Pagans to Christianity. Google "Christmas Pagan holiday" for further review.

All interesting stuff. IMHO having the precise date is difficult when going back so far (look into the history of Leap year for some interesting history) and is not as important as the celebration of the meaning/reason for the holiday. IMHO that is why BHO has faltered here - he wants the celebration to be separated from the history and significance. It's akin to him wanting a Veteran's Day celebration without any representation or acknowledgement of our armed services veterans.

[Sten]

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tim-gra...stmas-plans-wh

The lunch conversation inevitably turned to whether the White House would display its creche, customarily placed in a prominent spot in the East Room. Ms. Rogers, this participant said, replied that the Obamas did not intend to put the manger scene on display - a remark that drew an audible gasp from the tight-knit social secretary sisterhood. (A White House official confirmed that there had been internal discussions about making Christmas more inclusive and whether to display the creche.)

Yet in the end, tradition won out; the executive mansion is now decorated for the Christmas holiday, and the creche is in its usual East Room spot.

It seems that Desirée Rogers is an idiot and is trying her absolute best to get on the unemployment dole.

[Sigaba]

We are a nation founded on Judeo-Christian values.

It may also be worth recalling that within British Colonial America there were a wide range of interpretations as to what these values precisely were. As Nathan Hatch argues, these debates carried on throughout the nineteenth century.*

Moreover, significant studies of European religious history--in particular works by Keith Thomas, Caroline Walker Bynum, and Carlo Ginzburg--point out that the practice of Christendom in the Old World was accompanied by numerous deliberate acts of accommodation to and appropriation of existing pagan and folk beliefs.**

These works suggest that even something as sacrosanct as faith is a matter of constant debate and negotiation.

IMHO, I think the conclusion that being "inclusive" when it comes to celebrating a religious holiday requires the "exclusion" of the holiday itself is instructive. It shows how much this president continues to mistake his odd brand of pragmatism for effective leadership.

If the president truly wants to demonstrate the fact that America's religious diversity is unparalleled, would it not make better sense to honor those religions and their high holidays in their own terms and without effacing others?

______________________________________________
* Nathan K. Hatch, The Democratization of American Christianity (ISBN-13: 9780300050608).
** Keith Thomas, Religion and the Decline of Magic: Studies in Popular Beliefs in Sixteenth and Seventeenth Century England (ISBN-13 9780195213607); Caroline Walker Bynum, Holy Feast and Holy Fast: The Religious Significance of Food to Medieval Women, The New Historicism: Studies in Cultural Poetics (ISBN-13 9780520063297); Carlo Ginzburg, The Cheese and the Worms: The Cosmos of a Sixteenth-Century Miller (ISBN-13 978-0801843877).