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Old 09-04-2008, 16:25   #16
Sigaba
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As someone with a modest knowledge of American history, I find the arguments against America's invasion of Iraq curious.

The argument that President Bush is a maverick who threw out all the rules in his rush to invade Iraq overlooks that his approach to Iraq was in line with his predecessors. First, as Hollis's post amply illustrates, the Bush administration's policy towards Iraq and its WMD program was a continuation of Clinton's--a point that is conveniently forgotten in the on-going debate over OIF.

Second, Bush's national security policy is a continuation of the Clinton administration's determination to maintain a preponderance of power. In turn, the desire to keep America more powerful than anyone else finds its roots in the post-World War II policy of the Truman administration.

Third, as documented by the Iraqi Perspectives Project here, Saddam's WMD program was a pillar of his domestic political power. If one considers the fact that Saddam feared rebellion from within above all else, it stands to reason that he could not let his supporters know that his big stick was a sham--had he done so, many would have had second thoughts of the sacrifices they'd made on his behalf.

Many of his own supporters believed Saddam had WMDs as late as December 2002, and some, even beyond that date. Is it not possible that the only way that his programs could have been proved to be shadows of their former selves was through the type of inspections that Saddam could never have allowed?

Fourth, and a point that I wish the president had done more to communicate, is the fact that Saddam drew inspiration from both Hitler and Stalin: surely the two greatest enemies America has ever had. In my view, such an affinity for tyranny goes beyond differing value systems and political beliefs. To me, a leader of a sovereign state who holds these views, has repeatedly demonstrated a capacity for aggression, and is in defiant breach of agreements he signed with his own hand should not be taken lightly.

Finally, and this point is more rhetorical point than historical, one could make an argument that America has rarely entered a war for the 'right' reasons. But it would be even harder to argue that America has entered the wrong side of a conflict. Aristotle argued that doing the right thing required the right motivation. However, I wonder if a president's decision to fight the right war for the so-called 'wrong' reasons is sometimes better than deciding not to fight at all?

Last edited by Sigaba; 09-26-2008 at 20:52.
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Old 09-04-2008, 18:39   #17
Surf n Turf
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Originally Posted by Sigaba View Post
one could make an argument that America has rarely entered a war for the 'right' reasons.
Sigaba,

WHAT ?????

SnT
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Old 09-04-2008, 19:48   #18
Sigaba
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SnT,

I'm referring to debates among historians over the reasons why America went to war. These debates focus on the configuration of ideological, political, diplomatic, economic, and cultural issues. In some cases, such as the causes of the War of 1812, the debate is interesting only to academics. In others, such as Vietnam and OIF, the debate is more of a political brawl.

Please let me state clearly that I am merely reporting that there are long running conversations among scholars. Some choose to make political arguments unsupported by archival evidence and impervious to different interpretations while others use archival evidence to support their points of view and to advance the discussion.

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Sigaba,

WHAT ?????

SnT

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Old 09-04-2008, 22:00   #19
anythingrandom
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Additional Reference

Hello -

Try the book "Demon in the Freezer" by Richard Preston. He details the weapons inspectors' trials in Iraq, where they discovered Soviet bioreactors. The serial numbers on the chambers matched those seen by earlier inspectors of the Soviet era. The bioreactors were used by the Soviets to engineer and manufacture smallpox, Saddam's scientists could have used them for the same purpose. (Doubtless, IMO)

If I remember correctly, they claimed to be working on camelpox, for research only. I'd give page numbers, but my copy is loaned to a coworker who made the mistake of wearing a "No More Blood For Oil" shirt while I was present.

Hope this helps.

ATR
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Old 09-05-2008, 05:21   #20
The antihero
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However, I wonder if a president's decision to fight the right war for the so-called 'wrong' reasons is sometimes better than deciding not to fight at all?
The French philosopher André Glucksmann made a similar point in a private encounter with french Prime Minister DeVillepin trying to convince him to stand next to G.W. Bush in the incoming war. He quoted Pascal saying "if we cannot make strong what is right, we must make right what is strong". DeVillepin chose not to listen and actually in an interview a few weeks later mentioned Pascal's quote like what NOT to do.

The episode is quoted in Glucksmann's pamphlet "West Against West".
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Old 09-05-2008, 08:28   #21
charlietwo
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Thanks for the input everyone. Very strong thread going here. Also, thanks for all the ammunition Looking forward to getting back to my firefight.

"Not worth confirming the unknown and letting it go...I dont think you'll ever hear what was or was not actually found." - Very strong point. I was considering going back and conceding that neither of us could prove that WMD's were or were not present, which would allow us to argue the true merits of the invasion. Unfortunately, this is only a once a week class which lasts for 3 hours.

Not for a moment had I considered backing down from this fight, or future fights. This is exactly why I took International Relations The professor managed to lose all sense of objectivity about 15 minutes into his lecture, which he refers to as a discussion. Our discussions are the verbal equivalent of a fill in the blank questionaire. Professor asks leading questions to which the sheep can usually reply to quite easily. I think there's only one person in the class who has an idea of what's going on in the world, and he's quite liberal. I look forward to mixing it up with him.

Again, thanks for all the help!
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Old 09-05-2008, 09:12   #22
charlietwo
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Try 550 Metric Tons of Concentrated Yellow Cake Uranium removed just this past July!!! The MSM sure kept this quietly tucked away!!!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25546334/
This was actually the first argument I made, and it was naturally dismissed by my opponent. When I got home and researched it a bit more I found this part of the article, "Israeli warplanes bombed a reactor project at the site in 1981. Later, U.N. inspectors documented and safeguarded the yellowcake, which had been stored in aging drums and containers since before the 1991 Gulf War. There was no evidence of any yellowcake dating from after 1991, the official said." While to conservatives and others with a fraction of intelligence, this should be irrelevant. The fact that someone like Hussein had a large abundance of raw uranium should be of concern, but I doubt I could win any argument using this as my centerpiece.
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