05-14-2004, 18:39
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#16
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Consigliere
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland (at last)
Posts: 8,845
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Oh, and speaking of tribute:
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Roguish Lawyer is offline
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05-15-2004, 11:54
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#17
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: East Coast
Posts: 438
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A kid in the midwest tired to buy a car a little while ago. When they ran a credit check he was detained for an hour and a half because he had the same name as one of the September 11th hijackers' alias.
His birthday: Sept 11th.
What do you conspiracy theorists make of that?
Mr. Berg is dead because he was inexperienced and hard-headed and did not practice good personal security and he had almost zero situational awareness.
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Jimbo is offline
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05-15-2004, 12:18
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#18
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Israel
Posts: 405
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Nick Berg, RIP was an idiot, and what Jimbo said...
Some additional info:
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/427137.html
American Jew beheaded in Iraq was becoming more religious
By Nathan Guttman, Haaretz Correspondent
WASHINGTON - Nick Berg, the 26-year-old American who was brutally murdered by al-Qaida supporters in Iraq, was drawing closer to Judaism in the past year, according to friends.
More details are available at the link above.
I can't understand why anyone would go somewhere like Iraq without being sent there, or to work though an organised company???
Off to watch a movie now
Keep well all
Hoepoe
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hoepoe is offline
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05-15-2004, 14:26
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#19
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jimbo
What do you conspiracy theorists make of that?
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Better one detained for an hour and a half than another 3k dead. Or even one more dead.
Don't be offended if when we finally meet I pat you down and ask you a couple of questions.
You keep believing in coincidence and I'll keep being suspicious of everyone and everything - we'll see who lives longer. I am on the Team Sergeant's 0-3 meter plan.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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05-15-2004, 16:19
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#20
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: East Coast
Posts: 438
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Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
You keep believing in coincidence and I'll keep being suspicious of everyone and everything - we'll see who lives longer. I am on the Team Sergeant's 0-3 meter plan.
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Oh, I'm suspicious. But after a fairly thorough investigation, I try to see what the facts have borne out and not let my imagination take over.
Berg was a smart kid. Dropped out of Cornell and started his own business. He was well respected by people he dealt with on a professional level. He went to a small business in reconstruction conference put on by the USG. In talking with people there it became clear that he needed to be in Iraq to get contracts. He went to Iraq. He started a company in Iraq with a local. Some things worked out, others didn't. He went home to the US. He went back to Iraq. He started making contacts for contracts. He is consistently described by many as lackadaisical when it came to personal security. He wandered around without security. He would get into random cabs, instead of hiring a driver.
And yet somehow this kid was leading a double life, linking up with terrorists in the US, telling people about it, converting to Islam from Judaism and then allowed himself to be beheaded on tape to the horror of his family. Seems like a lot of trouble to go through to not cover your tracks.
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Jimbo is offline
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05-15-2004, 17:08
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#21
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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Ernest was a smart kid. Graduated from medical school, then worked as a nurse on merchant ships. Never really took to his profession. He went on motorcycle trips, but was consistently described by many as lackadaisical when it came to personal security - so much so his motorcycle quit on him and he, having no money, was stranded. He went to another country because he heard there was a coup underway and he wanted to watch. He wandered around without security and without money. He started making contacts. He walked, instead of taking random cabs or hiring a driver. He was arrested by the police and almost blew the whole operation because he couldn't keep his mouth shut and because of a silly immigration violation. Never really told his family anything.
And yet somehow this kid was leading a double life, linking up with terrorists in Latin America, telling people about it, converting to Communism and then allowed himself to be hunted down and executed in a tiny creekbed in Bolivia to the horror of his family and communist revolutionaries everywhere. Seems like a lot of trouble to go through to not cover your tracks. Also seems like a round about way to see Cuba.
Wanna talk about the Jackal? McVeigh? 
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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05-15-2004, 17:13
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#22
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: East Coast
Posts: 438
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That's streatching it just a bit, don't you think?
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Jimbo is offline
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05-15-2004, 17:19
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#23
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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LOL - why? True is it not?
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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05-15-2004, 17:34
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#24
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: East Coast
Posts: 438
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Well, for one, I don't recall our boy Ernesto allowing himself to be hunted down.
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Jimbo is offline
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05-15-2004, 17:37
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#25
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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You sound like a proponent of Hanlon's Razor. I am as well, but I am also a proponent of NDD's Razor:
"Never attribute to coincidence that which can be adequately explained by a lack of professionalism."
Carlos is arguably the most famous international terrorist of all time until along came UBL - yet by many accounts, he was a bumbling idiot. What did he ever achieve, I mean really?
On a strategic level, what has Zarquawi or whatever his name is accomplished?
How much did UBL even really have to do with the actual event of 9/11? Did the ops success or failure hinge on his actions or lack there of? From a purely professional standpoint, how hard is it to kill 3k people if you are willing to die in the attempt?
Che was an utter and complete failure.
There are many more Richard reids than there are Jason Bournes.
Never underestimate the Walter Mitty factor or the depth of the beliefs of some of these people. The fact that Berg was Jewish means nothing to me. I am reasonably sure there are Jewish people helping Hizbollah - there are always are some willing to help what seems to be the other side. That he went to Cornell would seem to be an indictment rather than a saving grace in today's environment - isn't Cornell Ivy league?
How do you explain the coincidence of the email use?
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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05-15-2004, 17:39
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#26
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jimbo
Well, for one, I don't recall our boy Ernesto allowing himself to be hunted down.
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Ernest was set up for failure by competing politics and his own arrogance. His death was a foregone conclusion determined by his choosing the path he did.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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05-15-2004, 17:47
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#27
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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The email use?
And if you say "The FBI investigated and cleared him", I'll scream.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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05-15-2004, 17:50
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#28
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: East Coast
Posts: 438
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Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
How do you explain the coincidence of the email use?
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The same way I explain the kid whose name was the same as a 9-11 hijacker's alias being born on Sept 11th- random chance.
The same way I explain how the grenade attack on BBC was the night it was instead of the night before. As I understand it, one of the attackers saw a cop and delayed the attack by a night. What if that cop had stopped to tie his shoe, or been called to a robbery or....
The same way I expain the FBI visiting a young man in Gaithersburg, MD in the wake of the DC sniper attacks. It just so happened that he owned the domain 'iamgod.com' ( a particular phrase left by the sniper) and his brother had experience with a rifle and an angry history. There was a number of coincidence, but it didn't make him the sinper.
complexity theory is not my strong suit, but I prefer it to believing everything is a conspiracy. I could be wrong on this, but I doubt it.
Last edited by Jimbo; 05-15-2004 at 17:57.
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Jimbo is offline
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05-15-2004, 17:57
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#29
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jimbo
The same way I explain the kid whose name was the same as a 9-11 hijacker's alias being born on Sept 11th- random chance.
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So, a young man whose email just happened to be used by someone with suspected ties to AQ, just happens to go to Iraq twice and just happens to get murdered on video by AQ?
And BTW, after linking up with the husband of his late aunt, who just happened to have married an Iraqi?
I get it now.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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05-15-2004, 18:05
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#30
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LA
Posts: 1,653
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You could be right of course, but with the stakes, I would prefer to err on the side of the infidel. Just as you could be right, it could also be right that Mr. Berg was the naive and unwitting dupe of a cell in the US planning the next major attack.
It could also be right that he went to Iraq as the cell leader for final instructions and backed out when he learned of the target or weapon.
And it could be right that the FBI rolled up the domestic terrorists that did OKC and everyone involved is either dead or in prison. And that terry Nichol's just happened to get a mail order bride whose best friend just happened to know an AS terrorist.
It could also be right that UBL and SH really hated each other and there's no way they would ever work together.
And maybe Che's foco theory really does work.
But if we decide that random chance is grounds for closing the investigation, we don't stand a very good chance of ever really knowing do we? I get the impression that when we treat terrorism as a legal issue, we are very quick to get the conviction and wrap it up in a nice neat package for public consumption. White hats win, black turbans lose - next.
__________________
Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.
Still want to quit?
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NousDefionsDoc is offline
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