05-09-2004, 10:46
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#16
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland
Posts: 24,821
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tuukka
Reaper, having read much conflicting info regarding Le Mas ammunition. What is the real information on them, terminal ballistics wise in the real world.
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I have shot hard armor, soft armor, meat, and live tissue, and have never seen a round fail to perform as advertised, and then some. Friends who have shot live tissue have reported similar experiences.
Informal accuracy testing seems acceptable, function is fine in everything but a Seecamp .32 (which is designed around the Silvertip), pressure signs seem to be normal, muzzle velocity is high, as advertised (but SD for most rounds is very good), hard and soft armor penetration is exceptional, overpenetration through building material seems to be minimal, and tissue destruction is phenomenal.
No, I cannot explain how it works, and as an operator, don't really care.
That is my personal experience with the ammo.
TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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05-10-2004, 17:57
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#17
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Quiet Professional
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Another photo of the shoot.
Look at the chunks of meat flying around.
TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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05-10-2004, 18:01
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#18
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Quiet Professional
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This is a piece of armored glass, approximately 1.6" thick, and fairly steeply curved.
There are a number of failed shots from different guns and ammo, center penetration is a LeMas .300 WM, left and right it failed on the curved portion of the glass.
Lower is three LeMas .300 RUM shots that all made it through handily.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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05-10-2004, 18:11
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#19
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Southern US
Posts: 160
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I am sold!!!! That is some impressive stuff right there. If I had some money, LOL I would buy some of that fine ammunition.
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" they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint."
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shadowflyer is offline
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05-10-2004, 20:28
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#20
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Washington
Posts: 154
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My first post here,
Thanks for the chance to do so on this forum.
While at the Blackwater shootout we had the oppurtunity to film at 100,000 frames per second some of the BMT Land Warfare bullet designs impacting both steel and raw meat. We had hoped that high speed digital frames would provide data which could verify that the APLP (Armor Piercing Limited Penetration) bullets deploy differently when penetrating hard armor than they do when impacting living tissue or warm raw meat.
I will attempt to post the results of the high speed digital pictures tomorrow. What will be seen shows that in fact the BMT rifle rounds do in fact pass through hard steel very much intact, yet when impacting warm raw meat the bullets deploy very dramatically as a fragmenting round. X-ray live tissue impacts likewise have shown controlled depths with much greater than conventional lateral spreads of fragmentation when impacting live tissue. Unlike conventional bullet designs which often fragment due to destabilized trajectories when penetrating tissue, the BMT APLP rounds deploy with violent fragmentation from stabilized trajectories during penetration through warm raw meat or living tissues.
The recently developed third APLP bullet design which recently became operational is called the Land Warfare. The hard armor capability was signifigantly increased in this new design over what the polymer tipped CQB and Urban Warfare provided.
The short barrel 5.56 Land Warfare ammunition in the 1/7 twist barrels provides hard armor penetration capability not achievable from the M-855 Greentip bullets in any barrel length. The 12 inch 5.56 short barreled Land Warfare ammunition will penetrate 3/8" AR-500 with the bullet still intact, yet provide shoulder to shoulder penetration with over 20 inches of lateral fragmentation in hogs that weigh 200 pounds. There are no non-dedicated AP bullet designs that can penetrate as much armor in any of the currently procured 5.56, 7.62x51, or 300Winmag ammunition.
Le Mas Ltd. had the chance to also demonstrate the new .45acp CQB ammunition from a dedicated Glock-21 platform with drop in KKM barrels. The combination of the Glock-21 handgun and 6.5 inch KKM barrel delivers the 85 grain projectile at 2500fps. This handgun platform will defeat more hard and soft armor than any non dedicated AP 5.56 ammunition when fired from 5.56 barrels shorter than the M-4 in the CQB environment.
I will try to post some of this data tomorrow for anyone's review. Again thanks for the oppurtunity to post information here.
Stan Bulmer
Le Mas Ltd.
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APLP is offline
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05-11-2004, 15:08
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#21
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Central TX
Posts: 1,390
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Reaper
Another photo of the shoot.
Look at the chunks of meat flying around.
TR
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What caliber was that?
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Air.177 is offline
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05-11-2004, 15:59
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#22
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Washington
Posts: 154
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Quote:
Originally posted by Air.177
What caliber was that?
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If IIRC the shreads of meat on the camera and in the air were from the .45acp CQB round. The meat particles deposited on the roof from the next door range were from the .308 Land Warfare round.
Both impacts into raw meat were also recorded on high speed digital as were the 3/8' and 1/2" hard armor penetrations from the 5.56 and .308 Land Warfare round.
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APLP is offline
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05-11-2004, 16:01
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#23
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Central TX
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APLP-Thank You
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Air.177 is offline
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05-11-2004, 17:40
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#24
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Consigliere
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Free Pineland (at last)
Posts: 8,841
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What happened to those videos that were up on a site (AFJ perhaps?) a while back? They aren't up any more . . .
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Roguish Lawyer is offline
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05-11-2004, 18:04
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#25
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Washington
Posts: 154
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Quote:
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
What happened to those videos that were up on a site (AFJ perhaps?) a while back? They aren't up any more . . .
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I was told by AFJ that the video streaming was very expensive to maintain on the link due to the large volume of hits on the video's.
I would expect the new video's will be available from this year's shootout for a period of time. The improved high speed camera used this year was capable of 150,000 frames per second and provides greater detail of the impacts into different mediums. I have seen the new footage of the APLP rounds which document characteristics in both armor and raw meat that were thought impossible by the ballistic experts. The Land Warfare bullet deployments when penetrating warm raw meat are shown to be very similar to the dramatic fragmentation patterns that take place when impacting living tissue. The same digital photography shows the same bullet design penetrating hard armors intact with very little fragmentation.
I was unable to post the digital extracts to this forum today, but hope to within the next couple of days for folks to look at.
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APLP is offline
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05-11-2004, 18:06
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#26
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Quote:
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
What happened to those videos that were up on a site (AFJ perhaps?) a while back? They aren't up any more . . .
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IIRC, burned too much bandwidth and attracted too many hits.
They just shot new videotape at BW, maybe Stan will put some up or pass the new CD to me and I will get it to the expert for posting, if that is okay with the TS.
I thought that it was a Magnum .30 throwing meat on the roof, I had no idea that the .308 LW would do that. Good stuff!
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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05-24-2004, 23:18
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#27
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Guerrilla
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Rocky Mountains
Posts: 199
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helluva way to tenderize your steak 
Is this limited availability ammunition?
EGG
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05-25-2004, 05:35
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#28
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Quiet Professional
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As I understand it, the LeMas is Mil/LE only due to its AP capability.
The civilian version is sold by RBCD.
TR
__________________
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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