you loot, I shoot

I was a dispatcher. 3d shift, O dark thirty, 911 call. "Some guy is coming through my window". I talk to the guy, my partner gets squads going. "He's crawling in on top of the dresser in front of the window. I have a gun, can I shoot the guy?" I tell him I can't make that call, my partner updates the squads that the caller is armed and prepared to shoot, squads still still enroute. "Stop or I'll shoot man!""I mean it, I will shoot you" "STOP OR I'LL SHOOT" . . . BOOM!

We both jumped in our chairs. Partner advises squads shots fired and tones out the paramedics. Caller tells me "I shot him". I asked if he hit him and where. Caller advises me guy was still proned out on top of the dresser and not moving. Asked the caller if he can get to an exterior door. Front door. Told him take the gun with him, unload it at the front door, leave the gun on the deck and step outside with his hands where the officers can see them. Squads updated with description of caller. Contact made, scene secured, medics in. This occurred two minutes away from the regional trauma center. Meds load and go.

Talked with the Lt. on the paramedic rig later, said guy shoulda died. .44 round entered just inside of his left shoulder traveled down his torso missing all the vital organs, down his left leg, and blew out his left heel. Life as he has known it is over.

Officer investigates, Mr. Unlucky MF comes home drunk off his ass, tries his key in the door and it doesn't work, he thinks cause he is too drunk to make it work, so, as he had apparently done many times before, he goes around to his bedroom window to climb in. Ever notice how houses in some subdivisions are architecually identical? Unlucky MF was three doors off, and so drunk he did not notice the person screaming at him from "his" bed. At the time, my state did not have a "defense of castle" privilege for the use of deadly force, but no criminal charges were filed.

Mr. MF and his attorney bring a civil suit. Pop quiz, hotshots. What result and why?

[bubba]

Well, you have Chicago listed as place of residence so I would figure that he (the shooter) got screwed big time for owning a pistol, and for discharging it within city limits.

[Retired W4]

It's the early 90's (before TX concealed carry law), two girls sit in a pickup truck on the bank of Lake Worth (Ft. Worth, TX), enjoying the sunshine. Mr. Numbnuts comes up, grabs the girl in the drivers' seat, tries to pull her out of the car (car-jackin). The girl in the passenger seat pulls out a .38 revolver from her purse and shoots Mr. Numbnuts in the face. Result: Car-jackin OVER! Grand Jury result: No Bill!

As for a civil suit in Illinois, I'm no legal HotShot, but my guess is the home owner probably had a judgement against him. That is one of many reasons I will not live in that state. I don't even like passing through.

One thing is for sure. Those Pasadena burglars won't do that again.

[Doczilla]

I guess anything can happen in Texas, BUT...

Shooting someone who is climbing in your bedroom window is one thing. Going outside to chase down and shoot someone who is fleeing the scene with stolen property is quite another.

I'm not saying that they didn't deserve to be removed from the gene pool. On an emotional level I agree with the homeowner. The court may not see things that way, though. The right to defend yourself usually, in the strict legal sense, does not allow you to pursue and kill someone for a property crime.

'zilla

[mdb23]

Originally Posted by frostfire

"Hurry up, man. Catch these guys, will ya? I ain't gonna let them go, I'm gonna be honest with ya," said Horn on the 911 call. "I'm not gonna let them go. I'm not gonna let them get away with this (expletive)."

"I'm gonna shoot, I'm gonna shoot," said Horn.

"Stay inside the house and don't go out there, OK?" responded the dispatcher. "It's not worth shooting someone over this."

"I don't want to, but if I go out there to see what the hell is going on, what choice do I have?" said Horn.

"(Expletive), they just stole something," said Horn to the dispatcher. "I'm sorry. I ain't gonna let them get away with this. They got a bag of something. I'm doing it."

1. This guy should teach a class on what not to say. He's an absolute idiot who sounds like he is just itching to go out and blast these guys. Dumb. Not once did he state or imply that he feared for his or his neighbor's safety, merely that "they stole something" and "he's not letting them get away with it." Nice. Dumbass.

2. I am a firm believer in the Second Amendment, and the Castle Doctrine. If you break into my home, I should be able to kill you. However, I do not support the idea that the Castle Doctrine should apply to other people's castles...not for a second.

Why? Well, it is pretty simple for me to know who is welcome in my home, and who is an intruder. After all, I am the one giving permission. It's pretty cut and dried. With a neighbors castle, there is just too much room for error.

Look, I have had to crawl through a window in my own home (long story), pick a lock after locking myself out, etc., and I have done these things at some pretty weird hours. I don't like the idea of my goofy assed neighbors thinking that they are justified in shooting me as I hang out a window, simply because it's 3am and too dark to recognize me.

Same goes for shooting my kid if he/she has snuck out (unknown to me) and is trying to sneak back in their window late at night. Let me decide whether or not they deserve to be shot. LOL

We get -tons- of false prowler/burglary in progress reports every night at work. Long story short, neighbors call saying tat some unknown dude is breaking into the house next door, or hauling out a TV, etc. We get there, and 99.9999999% of the time, it is a friend, moving company, or family member that the neighbor just doesn't know or recognize, and who has the homeowner's permission to be doing whatever it is they were doing.....

On one call, for example, a lady in the hospital had called her brother and asked him to go to her house, crawl in though the kitchen window, and get her keys and purse (she had been transported by ambulance, and didn't get this stuff). He complied, and the neighbors called on him. We snatched him up, and quickly figured out that there was no harm/no foul. There are tons of examples like this.

Imagine if, instead of calling, all of these nosey neighbors thought that they had the right to go out and shoot these "burglars."

I just don't think the average neighbor has access to enough info to make life and death decisions about who has a right to be on their neighbors property. Too much room for error.....way too much.

Originally Posted by bubba

Well, you have Chicago listed as place of residence so I would figure that he (the shooter) got screwed big time for owning a pistol, and for discharging it within city limits.

Ah, geez, not the big City, but the area.

As it relates to the thread story. Mr. MF gets (drum-roll)











zip, zero, nada, bupkis

Why?

Cause he was on the phone with me, and his clear, multiple warnings were recorded for posterity, so the 911 blade can cut both ways.

In this case, you have a guy using deadly force in defense of property. Generally, even in the defense of yourself or others, most states have a duty to retreat if you can. Retreat, hell, this guy attacked, after being advised (not ordered, as dispatchers are generally non-sworn positions except in the Big City) by the dispactcher (using best Chris Rock voice) "I wouldn't do that shit if I wuz you, man.

Even the most anti-criminal, pro-police citizen has to give a hard look at taking a life solely in the defense of property. I think he could be charged and convicted of a lesser offense, such as Reckless Injury, and will get probation, but will lose every red cent he has. He should get an attorney and do his financial planning now. Every property transfer he makes to relatives will later be scrutinized by the Bankruptcy Court, and that is where he is heading, because I don't care what kind of good hands you are in, all insurance policies have exclusions for intentional acts, and it doesn't get more intentional than this. Keep us posted on the eventual outcome. It will be instructive, as all court cases are meant to be.

Originally Posted by mdb23

We get -tons- of false prowler/burglary in progress reports every night at work. Long story short, neighbors call saying tat some unknown dude is breaking into the house next door, or hauling out a TV, etc. We get there, and 99.9999999% of the time, it is a friend, moving company, or family member that the neighbor just doesn't know or recognize, and who has the homeowner's permission to be doing whatever it is they were doing.....

Imagine if, instead of calling, all of these nosey neighbors thought that they had the right to go out and shoot these "burglars."

On the other hand . . . true story . . . taxpayers get back from two week vacation to find a burglary. Responding officer interviews neighbors across the street. Did you know they were on vacation. Yes. Did you see anything suspicious. Yes. What. Four guys in a moving truck (later, determined to have been a stolen vehicle). But you knew they were on vacation? Yes. Did you call us? No. Why? Well, they were minorities and I didn't want to be a racist.

They weren't that bad, as they left THE PAINT ON THE WALLS.

Don't be a trigger-puller unless you absolutely HAVE TO. If your spidey-sense is tingling, it is tingling for a reason. Call the po-po. Be a good witness, get the plate number, WEAPONS, which hand they were held in, color of the vehicle, two-door, four-door, the direction, the bumper sticker, the big dent, the clothes, the broken window, which tail light/head light was out, and testify, as long and as often as it takes. You CAN be a part of the evildoers nightmare.

[Retired W4]

Subchapter D, 9.43 is particularly important in this case.

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes...00.htm#9.43.00

The incident I mentioned in a previous post happened while I was a registered voter and resident of Tarrant County, TX (Arlington). Just like the time four punks were stealing some guys wheels off his car in an apartment complex parking lot. The owner came out with an SKS and opened fire, reloaded and shot some more. The mother of one shot up punk cried "He was a good boy! He never did anything wrong!" Grand Jury result: No Bill!

These incidents where of great interest to me, as home invasions, gang violence, and car jacking where epidemic, just as they are in Chicago. The difference is the law sides with the REAL victims of these crimes in Texas.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Remington Raidr

Generally, even in the defense of yourself or others, most states have a duty to retreat if you can.

None of the multiple states I have lived in and had CCWs in have had this requirement.

Sounds like you have absorbed some Northern liberal-think.

Citation of your source for this, please.

TR

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Remington Raidr

Told him take the gun with him, unload it at the front door, leave the gun on the deck and step outside with his hands where the officers can see them.

I'm glad it all turned out well, but I think I may have ignored this bit of advice until I was well away from the immediate area (the other side of the house doesn't meet my standards for this) and I actually saw the flashing lights approaching. For all I know, Mr. MF may have an armed, trigger happy buddy helping him up to the window.

Originally Posted by Razor

I'm glad it all turned out well, but I think I may have ignored this bit of advice until I was well away from the immediate area (the other side of the house doesn't meet my standards for this) and I actually saw the flashing lights approaching. For all I know, Mr. MF may have an armed, trigger happy buddy helping him up to the window.

Sorry, we had the perimeter but my guys don't want to shoot the wrong guy, I agree with you and I did tell him we were onscene before he moved.

AND a research assignment from TR! I am ON IT!

Reseach continues, because things have changed since I was in school. Keep in mind, if you cold-cock him or drill him, the jury instruction will be the same:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/07/us...=1&oref=slogin

"Even before the new laws, claims of self-defense were often accepted, said Gary Kleck, who teaches criminology at Florida State University.

"In the South," he said, "they more or less give the benefit of the doubt to the alleged victim's account."

Now, I understand that NYT is not gospel, and will try to reseach the issue in Free Pineland, or as close I can get, but your doubt has been validated. Must be that Robin Sage training.

and futher:

http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedL...S_14-51.1.html

print this and keep it in your ruck if you find yourself in similar circumstances, but the best course is to avoid the circumstance.

and for you Lone Star bubbas:

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodo...l/SB00378I.htm

and finally, for the instant case, with a kicker for your sandbox types:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...71829401/pg_10

TR, if you need further, AL or CSB are in Dixie, or we will have to discuss a retainer, and I just HATE that.

[Retired W4]

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodo...l/SB00378I.htm

is a Texas Senate bill introduced for consideration. The current Section 9 (Use of Deadly Force) was posted by me previously, and includes Defence of Property of a Third Person, which is what the shooter in Pasadena was doing. The antidotal evidence about previous shootings was entered here to give some historical perspective on the leanings of the Grand Juries that have considered like incidents.

My completely uneducated and uninformed, non-professional Texas Bubba guess is the results of the Grand Jury impaneled to consider this case will be: No Bill! That, of course, will be based on the current laws of the state of Texas, regardless of what people in other states think the law should be.

Maybe some of the TX lawyers on the board can tell me if I'm completely screwed up.

[AGaillard]

http://supreme.justia.com/us/471/1/case.html

This may be relevant to the situation with Mr. Horn. In Garner it was ruled that deadly force is not authorized against a non violent non threatening suspect even if they flee after notice was given of the intent to arrest. Being a deputy if I had arrived at the scene and witnessed them exiting the window I could not use deadly force to arrest them unless I could articulate a threat against myself or a third party. The threshold may be lower for Mr. Horn, and I do not know if the suspects displayed weapons. He should be comended for being willing to defend his neighbor's property, and I hope his peers in Texas feel the same way.

[CoLawman]

Mr. Horn committed murder. The only question in my mind is to what degree, manslaughter or murder. His statements indicate his frame of mind, even prior to the confrontation. He is going to shoot them for stealing property. He is not saying I am going to shootthem if they pose a threat to me, I am going to shoot them as they are committing a burglary.

There is a reason we have due process, it is to avoid vigilantism such as this. I am an advocate for using deadly force in defense of one's own property. I even believe that a person who enters a residence poses a risk to the occupants, but a neighbor secure in his own residence and in communication with LE. Sorry but this idiot needs to do some jail time.

To be willing to kill someone for a piece of property is a strong indication of this individuals "right from wrong" wiring. My money says that Mr. Horn is not an upstanding citizen, with prior arrests.

Mr. Horn needs to do some prison time.