Students Walk Out During Pledge of Allegiance

[Deadhead 63A1]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

IMHO, there has been a concerted effort by libs and secular progressives to denigrate the religious nature of the Founding Fathers, such as the extensive use of Jefferson's quote re separation of church and state and the prohibition on an established state church (like the Church of England), versus his separate comments about the importance of religion...

In fact, most of the FF were very religious, so much that they would likely be labeled fundamentalist today.

I believe that we have mistaken the legitimate of the state selecting one religion to follow and endorsing it as the official religion rather than the allowance of all Christian religions should be free to practice as they wish, with tolerance of those as other faiths.

I do not believe that they would endorse the current policy of deliberate efforts to subvert Christianity and to deny Christians the right to practice their faith, while making gross accomodations of other "minority" faiths.

Just my .02, YMMV.

IMHO there has been a concerted effort by the Conservative Christian movement to profess that morality can come only from religious belief. I belive this to be dead wrong and that there have been many good-hearted, right-minded men and women throughout history who did not hold to any faith in God.

Of course one of the many things that make our country great is the ability to "agree to disagree" without resorting to violence. I respect your opinion just as I respect the opinion of just about anyone who puts rational thought into that which they voice. I also respect the right granted by the supreme law of this land of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Pagans, Agnostics, Atheists, and everyone else to belive whatever they choose to believe and worship however they choose to worship so long as doing so does not inhibit the freedom of others to do the same.

FWIW, I'm far from liberal. I try to eschew labels, but I would consider my political beliefs as close to libertarianism as anything else.

Originally Posted by CSB

the kids were probably being smartasses.

You, sir, are most likely correct.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Deadhead 63A1

IMHO there has been a concerted effort by the Conservative Christian movement to profess that morality can come only from religious belief. I belive this to be dead wrong and that there have been many good-hearted, right-minded men and women throughout history who did not hold to any faith in God.

Of course one of the many things that make our country great is the ability to "agree to disagree" without resorting to violence. I respect your opinion just as I respect the opinion of just about anyone who puts rational thought into that which they voice. I also respect the right granted by the supreme law of this land of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Pagans, Agnostics, Atheists, and everyone else to belive whatever they choose to believe and worship however they choose to worship so long as doing so does not inhibit the freedom of others to do the same.

FWIW, I'm far from liberal. I try to eschew labels, but I would consider my political beliefs as close to libertarianism as anything else.

In a utopian society, your point may be true, but believe or not, at least Christianity and Judaism provide a set of generally accepted beliefs and a moral compass for their members. Admittedly, many do stray, but the religions provide for redemption of those who have transgressed. I see far too many alleged atheists or agnostics who use their secular views as an excuse for not providing an ethical framework for their kids, or worse yet, teaching them to take advantage of those who do.

Your right to worship, be it in a church pew on Sunday, or dancing naked under the full moon, ends at my property line. Your belief that sitting there entitles you to eternal life and access heaven is fine by me. If your religion dictates that you must force me to convert or kill me, then I should have the right to take preemptive action on your declared threat. It does not give you the right to a driver's license with no photo. You must, to some degree, conform to the wishes of the society that you wish to operate in. On the other hand, the fact that your group is Christian should not make you ineligible for access to public facilites, unless your conduct there violates social norms. If you want to pray during school, or take a nap during that period, as long as you are not disruptive, that is your business. You want to wear a burka to the Wal-Mart, be prepared if I point and laugh at you.

I would respectfully submit that far more has been accomplished by men and women of faith (correct or not) than by non-believers, but that is another topic.

TR

[Deadhead 63A1]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

I see far too many alleged atheists or agnostics who use their secular views as an excuse for not providing an ethical framework for their kids, or worse yet, teaching them to take advantage of those who do.

You can bet your bottom dollar that if my wife and I are ever able to have children, that will not be us. I have never been one to use anything as an excuse for my actions or inactions and do not intend to do so when it comes to my children. My lack of faith does not translate to a lack of understanding right and wrong. I am no moral relativist and I do not intend for my children to be that way.

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Your right to worship, be it in a church pew on Sunday, or dancing naked under the full moon, ends at my property line. Your belief that sitting there entitles you to eternal life and access heaven is fine by me. If your religion dictates that you must force me to convert or kill me, then I should have the right to take preemptive action on your declared threat. It does not give you the right to a driver's license with no photo. You must, to some degree, conform to the wishes of the society that you wish to operate in. On the other hand, the fact that your group is Christian should not make you ineligible for access to public facilites, unless your conduct there violates social norms. If you want to pray during school, or take a nap during that period, as long as you are not disruptive, that is your business. You want to wear a burka to the Wal-Mart, be prepared if I point and laugh at you.

We are in total agreement on all of the above and I appreciate your wit

[tom kelly]

Extremist on both the right and the left of the political spectrum are attempting to hijack religious institutions to further their goals of world domination.Please read "Aptitude for Destruction" Volume 2: Case Studies of Organizational Learning in Five Terrorist Groups. By Brian A. Jackson,John C. Baker,Kim Cragin,John Parachini.Horacio R. Trujillo and Peter Chalk. Published 2005 by the Rand Corporation....Regards,tom kelly

[3SoldierDad]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

I recommend an overseas trip to a poor country in Latin America, Asia, or Africa, to live with a local family for a week or two of imersion training.

When they retun, they will be leading the singing of the National Anthem.

As of right now, they do not know how little they know, and how much of what they think they know is just plain wrong.

TR

Yep, darn right.

I have four sons. I have one 17 year old daughter - my baby-doll Nellie. Unlike any of my sons she loves to sass her Old-Man - My sons were afraid of me; my daughter simply knows how to push me - Maybe some of you here can relate. I don't mind a "tense exchange" with my kids where reason and respect rule the conversation. I'm 48 and I'm not sure what's going on with this generation. They really seem to have a loathing for middle-aged, conservative, professional men (ever hear of misandry? - contempt for men). When she was done "letting fly her tirade" I told her much of her insight was excellent, but her general lack of respect made her message generally unacceptable.

She stormed off and emailed me a Radiohead song from her bedroom down to my den. It was a great song and its object was the scorn to be heaped upon a person that was missing the point. Oh, I got the point all right - just didn't like it being delivered with exploding spittle and high decibel expletives. I guess she was too young to remember Marshall McLuhan and that - the media was the message - stuff.

After I got done reading her Radiohead song and thinking about it and thanking her for being so honest and relating my appreciation for her critique of her father (funny thing - her brothers would have been on the way to the hospital...). I told her, however, that her general disrespect for authority (which I've observed for traffic laws, school teachers, her boss at the coffee shop where she works and yes her parents) could one day be deadly.

After I got her Radiohead song and drank in its import, I composed a couple of ditties of my own for my home's Princess Nellie...


Angry youths and vultures

Birdy, birdy – pick’en eyes, pick’en eyes. Slurping goo...
Why foul winged one do you eat so ravenously?
Eat so ravenously on the old hagged corpse?
Through blood stained beak it bends its brow to speak
"Wrinkled and old she is this frame, but the lusty eyes are of the young.
Bold and loathing they did see.
Now in my belly they feed me.

Let her curse - but, careful now...

King David said, “If God has told him to curse, let him curse me – Perhaps, God will see my plight and have mercy on me.”

Be careful She Shimei - Abishai won’t take that pretty head this day.
You are in nature’s work, She Shimei - but He who makes man’s shoulders may.

You've been enlisted in a good service She Shimei - dark angels guide Thee – Thank You, Dear.

But, it is a dark service O' Pretty Head
One where I would fear to tread.

Thank you She Shimei
Careful She Shimei


I fear this young generation - so wise, so sure, so ready to point - may not go to their graves in a peaceable way... I so hope I'm wrong.


Three Soldier Dad...Chuck


.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by Broadsword2004

In a perfect world, a country can exist as a conglomeration of all cultures and religions with no national beliefs, but in reality, if the country has no national identity, it will eventually disappear I believe, and if I had to choose a particular religion to base the primary values directing the country, it would be Christianity, not Buddhism, Islamic fascism, environmentalism, socialism, communism, etc...

I think you have touched on an important point here.

For many people today, their religion is actually their politics, regardless of what they may call themselves.

Environmentalists, socialists, liberals, entitlement leeches, etc. are far more attuned to their own political beliefs, and accept the value systems of them, than to their religion.

Many of the haters who say terrible things about the POTUS call themselves Christians, but do not act as such.

The one religion which seems to transcend politics and supplant political beliefs is Islam. You rarely hear a Muslim call for democracy, or socialism. They want a caliphate, and Sharia law, in a theocratic system of government. Iran is an excellent example of this.

To all those who take advantage of the freedoms this country was founded on, but who spew hate for the soldier, and love for the enemy, I will say that I almost hope I survive long enough to see what happens to them if this country ever falls to the Islamofascists.

At least there won't be any more gays here either, or smokers, or drinkers, or drug abusers, or adulterers, or welfare, and the divorce lawyers will all be out of business.

And the illegals will be gone pretty quickly as well, once they see how things are being run here.

Interesting.

TR

[Plutarch]

"Where does morality come from? What can cause humans to assume the ethical from the outset? If morality can be created and maintained independently of religion, if it is prior to religion, then the decline of religion need not be a matter of overwhelming social concern; religion becomes a matter of individual salvation after death, of overwhelming importance to the individual but of little social concern. Yet it is observable that religion and morality have declined together"

- Robert H. Bork, Slouching Towards Gomorrah

[HOLLiS]

Originally Posted by Plutarch

"Where does morality come from? What can cause humans to assume the ethical from the outset? If morality can be created and maintained independently of religion, if it is prior to religion, then the decline of religion need not be a matter of overwhelming social concern; religion becomes a matter of individual salvation after death, of overwhelming importance to the individual but of little social concern. Yet it is observable that religion and morality have declined together"

- Robert H. Bork, Slouching Towards Gomorrah

As I sat in a Philosophy class long ago, the prof asked the class, "What is the difference in religion and philosophy?" Much to the chagrin of most of the class, he stated, "None."

[Sdiver]

Can we just Nuke the PRoB ??

I mean, is anyone REALLY gonna miss it ???