The Demise of the XM8

[KSC]

Before my current deployment to Iraq, had a trip to Louisiana for training, which I missed because of surgery. Then as far as range time, had one reflexive fire range, and a zero range. In Kuwait, we verified our zero and did a couple live fire runs through a shoot house. So, after about 100 total rounds in a four month build up, all the rest of them were fired in Tikrit. About 3 months into our deployment "the man" decided ranges would be a great idea and started letting us do them regularly. Now they talk about how scarred they are that we carry M203 HEs and M67s since we aren't properly trained on them. The insurgents are safe in their firing positions behind their thick brick walls since the AT4s we have just sit at the ammo point since we, again, "aren't properly trained" to use them.

[jwt5]

Originally Posted by KSC

Before my current deployment to Iraq, had a trip to Louisiana for training, which I missed because of surgery. Then as far as range time, had one reflexive fire range, and a zero range. In Kuwait, we verified our zero and did a couple live fire runs through a shoot house. So, after about 100 total rounds in a four month build up, all the rest of them were fired in Tikrit. About 3 months into our deployment "the man" decided ranges would be a great idea and started letting us do them regularly. Now they talk about how scarred they are that we carry M203 HEs and M67s since we aren't properly trained on them. The insurgents are safe in their firing positions behind their thick brick walls since the AT4s we have just sit at the ammo point since we, again, "aren't properly trained" to use them.

It's gotta be Army wide. My time with 3ID was the same. Hell, when I went to Iraq the first time I was my team's M2 gunner. First time I ever fired her was during an ambush.
The second time around I suppose the higher ups listened to our gripes about not shooting enough on our "off" time. So we ended up going to ranges once a month. However, the training and ranges were crap. It was more of a nuisance then good training. Heck, they never let us zero our Aimpoints or Acogs until we got in country.

As far as the explosives, I feel your pain. In 2003 as soon as we switched from an invasion force to SASO operations they took our AT4s and grenades. We had AT4s in 2005, but we weren't allowed to ride around with them because someone, somewhere, was afraid of a ND from all the bumping around.

I would hear the same thing when I would ask about not being allowed to use the tools available to us. It was always, "You don't have the proper training". Well, why don't you find time to get us the training? OR have a little faith in some of our abilities.

I don't blame my chain of command though. I know the orders come from way above. It never helps anthing when your division is leading in NDs for the entire theatre...

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by jwt5

It never helps anthing when your division is leading in NDs for the entire theatre...

Why do you think that was? Seriously.

TR

[jwt5]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Why do you think that was? Seriously.

TR

I believe it was due to lack of training or poor training. I would also venture to say that some were products of complacency. A lot of these NDs were at clearing barrels. (i.e. people pulling the trigger before dropping the mag and pulling the slide back.) Only a few resulted in injury and one in death.

I believe that if you give people the proper training (the occasional idiot aside) and enough of it, you wouldn't have these problems.

But I could be wrong...

jwt5

As far as the explosives, I feel your pain. In 2003 as soon as we switched from an invasion force to SASO operations they took our AT4s and grenades. We had AT4s in 2005, but we weren't allowed to ride around with them because someone, somewhere, was afraid of a ND from all the bumping around.

-------------

As I recall, a Soldier from the 501st Transportation Company was receiving fire from a building, and returned fire at said building with an AT4. Needless to say the use of the AT4 under the 18th Airborne Corps was somewhat restricted after that, but the Mk19 remained in heavy use.

[jwt5]

Originally Posted by huzza

As I recall, a Soldier from the 501st Transportation Company was receiving fire from a building, and returned fire at said building with an AT4. Needless to say the use of the AT4 under the 18th Airborne Corps was somewhat restricted after that, but the Mk19 remained in heavy use.

I remember hearing that also. Just like in 2005 when the LT had a ND on his Bradley with a TOW missle. Needless to say, our Bradleys didn't have them for the rest of the deployment.

Yes the MK19 was still in use a lot because that's all we had, well, with the exception of my personal favorite, the M2. Nowadays though you don't see many Mk.19s or even M2s around Iraq. Most people beebop around with M240s. Which is a shame, just seeing that M2 made most people p*** themselves..

All the companies in my battalion, with the exception of us (thanks Top!) traded their M2s for M240s back in 2004. They said is was due to ease of use. Of course come convoy time who were they calling?

[kgoerz]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Why do you think that was? Seriously.

TR

The op tempo for 7th SFG in 1989 was very high. Weapons training was at the bottom of the list. Ammo hard to find on Bragg. This showed during Just Cause. Most AD'S were the result of people carrying different Weapons that they weren't trained on. Hate to say it but it was also about appearance. Our TS forbid us to carry anything but our issued weapons. Smart man, only Team to go AD free.
Most people learned what open bolt meant after the loud Bang. But in general it comes down to poor weapons handling skills. Lack of training.
Today the focus has completely changed. Right before a new Ammo delivery for a new class. We would advertise free Ammo to shoot, Range available. No coordination, just show up and take the keys.
It was hard to find Teams who wanted to take advantage of this. Not because they didn't want to train. CQB/CMMS training is common now. Ammo is easy to get. Ten years ago we would of had to fight them off.

[kgoerz]

Originally Posted by trooper

I'd be interested in your thoughts. However I believe I may be able to guess the reasons for and against conventional troops actually live firing besides being put on detail to drag chutes at the riggers shop because nothing else was on the training docket for the day.

6 years with the 82nd Airborne and believe I only lived fired the M16, the M203 and M60 3 or 4 times in six years of AD service.

Most day's in garrison were spent cleaning a conex or getting haircuts at the SGM's request. I honestly dont think they trusted with live fire and or the budget that was in place at the time.

Just my .02

Were you an 11B? I was only there two years in purgatory. But we shot more often then I was lead to believe before being sent there. The quality of training could of been better, looking back.
I drive thru Bragg using a road lined with Ranges. These days those Ranges are occupied constantly.
Know how you can tell if a Unit is training. I look at their Ranges. If there is grass growing on the Berms. They ain't training. Very little grass growing on the Berms along Plank Road these days. Has to be driving Range Control nuts
When Brass from the regular Army would visit Range 37. It was obvious they were disappointed with the appearance of our flat Ranges. All the Ranges and Berms are dirt, no pretty grass growing there. Grass growing on a Range is just wrong.

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by KSC

Before my current deployment to Iraq, had a trip to Louisiana for training, which I missed because of surgery. Then as far as range time, had one reflexive fire range, and a zero range. In Kuwait, we verified our zero and did a couple live fire runs through a shoot house. So, after about 100 total rounds in a four month build up, all the rest of them were fired in Tikrit. About 3 months into our deployment "the man" decided ranges would be a great idea and started letting us do them regularly. Now they talk about how scarred they are that we carry M203 HEs and M67s since we aren't properly trained on them. The insurgents are safe in their firing positions behind their thick brick walls since the AT4s we have just sit at the ammo point since we, again, "aren't properly trained" to use them.

So, what Guard unit are you a member of? MOS?

Gene

[longrange1947]

Originally Posted by kgoerz

.................Our TS forbid us to carry anything but our issued weapons. Smart man, only Team to go AD free..............

uh uh, be careful now. 761 never AD'ed and mine were just out of Tng Grp by less then a year. I did train them alot and put them on the range alot in Panama during the summer 'SET'.

[7624U]

Originally Posted by jwt5

All the companies in my battalion, with the exception of us (thanks Top!) traded their M2s for M240s back in 2004. They said is was due to ease of use. Of course come convoy time who were they calling?

I liked having the M2 in the front Hummv and the M240 in the rear Hummv mainly the M2 up front covered forward so it could blast other cars if needed and the M240 in the rear could cover roof tops at close range much easyer then the 50.cal could, But the main reason of having a M240 along instead of a 2ed M2 or a MK19 is you can dismount with it. we also took the rear turtle shell off our uparmor's and put a rear facing M249 with a dude in a armored seat in the back of each hummv.
A M240 with a zero'd PEQ-2 laser on it is way better for night ops in my opinion.
I was also looking into having a mount made that would hold a M240 and have a off set barret M107 so I could switch between the Two weapon systems. then I wouldent need to mess with having the
M2 at all.
We also rolled with M79 grenade launchers up in the turret.

My .02 cents

[jwt5]

Originally Posted by 7624U

I liked having the M2 in the front Hummv and the M240 in the rear Hummv mainly the M2 up front covered forward so it could blast other cars if needed and the M240 in the rear could cover roof tops at close range much easyer then the 50.cal could, we also took the rear turtle shell off our uparmor's and put a rear facing M249 with a dude in a armored seat in the back of each hummv.
A M240 with a zero'd PEQ-2 laser on it is way better for night ops in my opinion.
I was also looking into having a mount made that would hold a M240 and have a off set barret M107 so I could switch between the Two weapon systems. then I wouldent need to mess with having the
M2 at all.
We also rolled with M79 grenade launchers up in the turret.

My .02 cents

I love'd my M2. Every team in my platoon had an M2 on their truck. In 2003 we rolled out once with the scout section of TF2-69. 20 or so humvees with nothing but M2s and Mk.19s. What a sexy sight. As far as taking off the rear hatch of our turtle shells, we did the same, of course our M249 gunner wasn't happy about it

I must say I had some weapon envy when we were beboping around Iraq in 2005 and some teams from 5th group, I believe, were rocking that new mini-gun. Also the SEALs that were on my battalion's FOB had two trucks with a mount for dual M240s Some of the SOF teams fire power is an awesome sight to see, that's for sure!