Any Comments on the "inferior" M-4 article

[The Reaper]

This is old history, brother.

We had problems getting Swedish Ks in the 60s due to Sweden considering us a belligerent, leading to Smith and Wesson coming out with the S&W 76.

IIRC, they also would not sell us some 40mm weapons during the same period, like Bofors.

I am surprised that we have not had problems getting ammo recently for the Karl Gustav and AT-4s.

It can happen, and it does. I suspect that we get domestic production rights for anything that will be over a certain number, like the M-9 from Beretta.

TR

[Ret10Echo]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

This is old history, brother.

TR

Agreed....we keep digging this body up though.

Doomed to repeat it....

Sorry, must be the CNN.... I've been trapped in an airport all day and I can't get away from it....the horror...the horror

[kgoerz]

Naw, his weapons are too loose and never jam.

Never have to clean them also

What, no wooden handled entrenching tool, with the folding pick? What about the mess kit and steel canteen? And a P-38?

I am surprised that you took the woobie over the wool blanket.

I wan't to hear more about the Sling Shot Sir I have moved to the corner and assumed the fetal position concerning this subject, weeks ago. Until I saw it mentioned here.

I knew it would be discussed here, not argued. This has been argued to death elsewhere, agendas being the driving force. This is the only place where facts and common sense are countered or backed up with more of the same.

[Ambush Master]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

This is old history, brother.

We had problems getting Swedish Ks in the 60s due to Sweden considering us a belligerent, leading to Smith and Wesson coming out with the S&W 76.

IIRC, they also would not sell us some 40mm weapons during the same period, like Bofors.

I am surprised that we have not had problems getting ammo recently for the Karl Gustav and AT-4s.
TR

Old Ben Baker got the Dutch all up in a tizzy, in the early '70s, when they found out that the Mini-grenades that they had sold him were not being used for evaluation, but were being used in combat!!!

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by Ambush Master

Old Ben Baker got the Dutch all up in a tizzy, in the early '70s, when they found out that the Mini-grenades that they had sold him were not being used for evaluation, but were being used in combat!!!

What's the problem? Sounds like a pretty objective test environment to me. Definitly get a pass/fail evaluation out of it. Peregrino

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

What, no wooden handled entrenching tool, with the folding pick? What about the mess kit and steel canteen? And a P-38?

I am surprised that you took the woobie over the wool blanket.

TR

Yep, all that too. Took the woobie over the blanket as my bow to technology and the fact that the bad guys can smell a wet wool blanket almost as well as a cigarette. Still have my P-38 configured to anger most conventional Cdr's taped securely with friction tape to my dog tags. My wooded handled entrenching tool was the non-improved type without the folding pick.

[Aoresteen]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

......What about the mess kit and steel canteen? ....


TR

TR,

I have two steel canteens and two artic canteens in my winter warfare duffelbag. Ever try to thaw a plastic canteen over a fire?

[longtab]

Originally Posted by longrange1947

Naw, his weapons are too loose and never jam.

Hmmm... still stiring the pot I see. Dare we bring up the 1911 vs M9 controversy or save it for later?

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Originally Posted by longtab

Hmmm... still stiring the pot I see. Dare we bring up the 1911 vs M9 controversy or save it for later?

Not unless you want to talk landing rights in Italy and having to replace the damn slides every 1500 rounds or so to keep folks from eating pizza oven hardened steel to appease the politicos at the expense of the troop!! But then what else is new, the troops always have been expendable when it comes to the will of the politician

[incommin]

"But then what else is new, the troops always have been expendable when it comes to the will of the politician."

Nothing comes before filling the slush / reelection funds coffers first! God forbid doing something that is best for the country or the military first!


Jim

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Aoresteen

I have two steel canteens...

The wide-mouth German variety?

[jbour13]

I've owned and have carried an M-4 and M-16 for the short 9 years that I've been in. Granted, I don't shoot near as much as those that need to or have to (I'm intel, don't hold it against me).

I own an upper from LWRC and my oldest brother works as the Demo Team leader and sales rep for LWRC. They make fine rifles in multiple configurations and calibers. Upon my return to Bragg, I am planning on getting LWRC to come down and do a demo for my BN at least, if not the Group or beyond. Does my family benefit from the potential purchase of these systems, you bet. But call my oldest brother and he will give you the real reason. He wants to get the best possible weapon in the hands of who matter most, the soldier. I can talk at length of the benefits, but research it if need be.

Direct inpingement, or The Legacy System, causes problems. So does dirt and crappy ammo. Biggest thing I see is failure to do right on the weapons operator. Clean your crap and move out. I mentioned priorities of work at BNCOC and got the deer in the headlights look. It isn't just the young joes that are lacking. NCO's are failing to do the right things. I had only 2 soldiers in my class that had any idea of what priorities of work meant. They were former 11B's. I only know because I had it beat into my brain by my NCOIC who was Infantry for the 4 years I was assigned to 2nd BDE and 1-27 Inf in Hawaii.

HK makes fine guns, at a cost. Gas piston guns are nice, at a cost. How cost effective is a life, well that is for those in power and bean counters to decide. Until I'm given something different, I'll train with and maintain my rifle like it was my own.

Pete made the best point, "A weapon is a tool."

[JGarcia]

I've had one problem, with a brand new M4. The barrel was loose. I turned it back into the Armorer, got a new one. No problems. I'd shoot it, pull the bolt carrier out, wipe it off with a rag, take the bolt out wipe it down, take that same rag, swab around the inside of the upper receiver. Apply a good coat of CLP on the aforementioned parts, keep her wet, and she'll shoot all day. Repeat every 3000 rounds. Fancy cleaning is for turning it in, or if you have nothing else to do.

Aside from the loose barrel, the only problems I've ever had with the 16 series were a result of not having enough CLP on the moving parts.

I think there are just too many Soldiers that don't get to shoot realistically often enough. Not enough familiarity, and a whole lot of timidity with regard to the weapon.

[x SF med]

Originally Posted by kgoerz

I wan't to hear more about the Sling Shot Sir I have moved to the corner and assumed the fetal position concerning this subject, weeks ago. Until I saw it mentioned here.

I knew it would be discussed here, not argued. This has been argued to death elsewhere, agendas being the driving force. This is the only place where facts and common sense are countered or backed up with more of the same.

A good wrist rocket and #6 Ball Bearings, yup that'll do em in, no muzzle signature either... I'm going to agree with COL Jack and KG here.

I prefer the aluminum handled e-tool, with the edges sharpened slightly. Although (then) SFC Howard did a good job with the wooden handled one when the SHTF...

And we can't forget NDDs sharp pointy stick with the nail in it either.

To second COL Jack and TR's point - the weapon at hand is the weapon you need to use, if you happen to run out of bullets and the barrel isn't too hot, use the friggin rifle as a baseball bat/club.

[7624U]

Originally Posted by Aoresteen

TR,

I have two steel canteens and two artic canteens in my winter warfare duffelbag. Ever try to thaw a plastic canteen over a fire?

Is the pee bottle clearly marked
or did you give that one to your Jr when he came to the team