OPSEC OR CENSORSHIP? Does this mean we have to stop posting on PS.com?

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Originally Posted by NG_M4_Shooter

Commanders have plenty of UCMJ authority to NUKE a Soldier running off at the mouth. We've all been forewarned regarding OPSEC, there are briefings ad naseum, counseling statements must be written, followed up on, etc. If the joe then steps on his dick, well, then he was warned.

.

From my limited experience, UCMJ authority is the last thing a commander want's to resort to. There are many other things that should happen first. I cannot believe what I am hearing here about the rights of someone to be able to violate lawful orders, regulations, common sense, and place his compatriots at risk because he needs to talk to mommy, daddy, susie, jodie or whomever. If they are all that distracted from the task at hand they need to find another line of employment. Now I am all for technological advances and the health, moral and welfare of the troops, but this war and not some friggin game. For some reason some folks seem to have a very narrow focus and seem all to self-centered. There are just times when it is better to cut the damn apron strings and drive on with what is important than maintaining instant communication to deal with all the isolated homebody problems over which you can do nothing. Let's get real here.

[blue02hd]

I read the link that NG M4 originally posted, and I still am not impressed. I guess I keep remembering when a young wife who's husband was in another Platoon I was deployed with learned of her husbands death by reading it on an FRG site. That is wrong on so many levels it can't ever be excused away. I wonder how that poor 20 something wife would respond to this post?

I have no sympathy for anyone who feels their personal rights have been infringed, especially if they have raised their right hand and swore an oath. Sometimes service really demands some MAJOR sacrifice. If it makes the offended happy, I'll research a "Milblog free" medal for Congress to consider in order to console those who have been unplugged.

Just recently I had a conversation with friends that instruct in various portions of "the pipeline". They told me how amazed I would be about about "milblogs" created by students in the course that outline our training. I understand that steps are in place to correct this.

If it really burns someones muffins not to be able to post like "Rosie O'Donnel" then atleast they have the satisfaction that after they get out they can write a book on their experiences. Just like George Tenent. Hmmm, I wonder if he had a blog?

I shall now end my blog,,,,

[groundup]

I think it needs to be narrowed down to mission oriented information. Or, if you are in a combat area. For someone stateside (not dealing with combat operations) to have to submit their posts to their commander for approval is absurd in my opinion.

[Daver]

The CBS national news just ran this story and honestly I think there is still too much wiggle room here. Blogs will have to be approved but E mails aren't. OK, so technically, soldiers can still report information but it won't have the ability to touch so many people at once. Someone explain to me how sending out sensitive, sometimes very critical information, in near real time to a civilian who is not a decidion maker, regarding life or death combat situations is a good thing anyway. The fact that YOUTUBE has become a posting place where Soldiers can go on a patrol, get shot at, blown up, and treat the dead and wounded, and film it all, then go back to their FOB and post it online for all to see is rediculous. When a Soldier posts a Blog and in detail, describes the horrors of combat and the effects it has on morale, doesn't the enemy use that as a continued source of motivation to keep attacking us.
Call me old school, but while the internet has improved many aspects of our daily lives, it has also complicated them. It will be hard to go back but maybe that's what needs to happen. The enemy is smart and they are flexible. If they can gleen even the slightest amount of information on tactics, equipment, and abilities, they will adjust their tactics, equipment, and abilites to attack us.
This war is not "Show and Tell"..it's war and good men and women die everyday. My daughter will soon be over there as a nurse and she will deal directly with the carnage we see on TV. If she is safer because the higher ups only allow her 1 phone call home per week, than I'm OK with that.

Mission First...Men always

[CRad]

Originally Posted by groundup

I think it needs to be narrowed down to mission oriented information. Or, if you are in a combat area. For someone stateside (not dealing with combat operations) to have to submit their posts to their commander for approval is absurd in my opinion.

Well, sure unless you are getting info from an unchecked source and posting it for your buddy because his stuff has to be submitted to the CO. Never underestimate the ability of soldiers to get around regulations. Besides, the Army is a one-size fits all type place. That's what I think anyway and I could be wrong.

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Originally Posted by groundup

For someone stateside (not dealing with combat operations) to have to submit their posts to their commander for approval is absurd in my opinion.

Perhaps, but then perhaps not. What makes you think that some seemingly insignificant post concerning anything of military nature when combined with other seemingly insignificant posts cannot provide an intelligence bonanza? Something simple such as a training event, the introduction of a new piece of equipment, or a bitch concerning the failure of a system or a slump in moral or discipline provides an opening for not only exploitation but psyops. While the reaction to some things like this can in fact be overkill, or appear to be overkill, it is only so because there is a distinct lacking in discipline and maturity within certain levels or units that create hardships for all. If you need but one example, think about what Abu Graeb did because some shit birds had to just be "cool". Something dumb, like the wrong pocket litter, can burn you and this is nothing more than inappropriate pocket litter than needs to be cleaned up for those who want to hang out their dirty laundry for all to see.

[Daver]

Perhaps, but then perhaps not. What makes you think that some seemingly insignificant post concerning anything of military nature when combined with other seemingly insignificant posts cannot provide an intelligence bonanza? Something simple such as a training event, the introduction of a new piece of equipment, or a bitch concerning the failure of a system or a slump in moral or discipline provides an opening for not only exploitation but psyops.



JM,
I agree. My earlier post was so similar to yours. I don't think enough folks understand "2nd, 3rd, and 4th order effects", or even an understanding of how their actions can cause any number of resulting reactions. As a young Soldier, my NCO's taught me how my actions or lack thereof will cause a reaction or lack thereof. This enemy we face now is College Educated in many cases and may very well have spent time in Western Countries learning about our customs and way of life.....oh wait, that's how SF guys work too!

[Jack Moroney (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Daver

As a young Soldier, my NCO's taught me how my actions or lack thereof will cause a reaction or lack thereof.

As did my NCOs. Of course with the tragic comedy that today's elementary education has become most kids have never heard the rhyme "For the Want of a Nail". I am sorry I missed seeing your post before I let my fingers stomp on my keyboard, I could have saved some space on the site as you hit all the points I wanted to make.

[Shar]

When my husband was in Iraq last year for the first month or two we were getting calls on a DAILY basis (literally) reporting every injury (so and so broke his hand, so and so has an eye injury) to us that happened anywhere in the brigade. It got so bad that our battalion had an incident briefing for a guy who got shot in the butt from a completely different battalion one night. They wouldn't tell us what the deal was until we all got to the briefing so all the wives were pretty well convinced we had a KIA in the unit. This was the last straw and we staged a revolt after this one. For some reason the Batallion Commander decided that instead of letting information come in throughout the batallion families and friends he was going to get everything out through the FRG callers. I can sort of understand that he was trying to control the rumor mill - but seriously. It was the worst month of my life. He finally saw the error of his ways after the wives spoke loud enough that the Brigade Commander heard what was going on. What they needed to do was black out all communications and take away everyone's cell phones (almost every soldier had a personal cell phone) during any real incidents. (Which they never did oddly, though fortunately we had very few KIA and only 1 in our unit.) I'd have been totally cool with it.

Blackouts are fine with us. (When I say us, I mean Army wives with a brain.) I'd prefer not talking to my husband for weeks on end via internet, phone or otherwise if it means that someone is going to get notifications the right way, or OPSEC is going to stay intact. Who in their right mind really needs to talk to their husband (or child/wife/girlfriend/etc) if there might be information given to them that might be intercepted that might end up endangering them? I loved talking to my husband, but I'd give it up in a heartbeat if it meant he was going to be safer!

The whole thing just seems so silly to me. My generation (me included) feels like we have to do it all/say it all/be it all/know it all right now. I guess that means we feel like we must get our voice out right now because it's so stinkin' important. Wouldn't it be a lot more prudent to take the information in those blogs and just write a journal the traditional way?

I guess I keep coming back to what blue02hd wrote about that wife who found out about her husband on an FRG site. It just makes me rage.

I grew up watching that AFN commercials about OPSEC... "Loose Lips Sink Ships" I think we need to show more of them. Just keep your traps shut, it's a whole lot safer that way.

[plato]

Originally Posted by groundup

I think it needs to be narrowed down to mission oriented information. Or, if you are in a combat area. For someone stateside (not dealing with combat operations) to have to submit their posts to their commander for approval is absurd in my opinion.

Experience says otherwise, however.

In the early 70's in Okinawa, we were generally divided into the 1st Group and "the rest of the troops". I don't know how we wound up with the mission, except the the COL said "go, do". We ran a handful of Counterintel types into the O-Club to give the GO who ran the island an evaluation of OPSEC. (We had our own MI Det.)

Our agents kept notes on what they picked up from the casual conversations, the grousing, the "how's it coming along" that took place between the patrons.

At the end of about two weeks, we could tell the commanders nearly "across the board" what their troop strength was, how ready their equipment was, the status of their training, other areas of weakness, and any "special efforts" going on.

Basically we knew how prepared they were and what they were preparing for. Any native bartender or waitress could have pointed out the vulnerabilities of those units to any interested person on the day that those troops deployed, in much better depth than our two-week mission provided us.

For a grin, just imagine the look on the face of the CI guys who were given the assignment to go and drink beer for the next two weeks.

For another grin, wanna guess what unit's current activities they knew *nothing* of at the end of that two weeks that they didn't know as a part of their normal duties?

The only difference between a unit that's stateside and a unit that's deployed in combat is that you aren't there *yet*.

[HOLLiS]

When I was in the MPs, we had CID and NIS working in our building. One of the NIS guys explained OPSEC in a way that made great sense to me.

He said it is like working a jig saw puzzle. One never knows which piece will pull the whole puzzle together. In Intel, one never knows what pieces the other side has. The best information is no information, for what may be common and everyday to one person may just be the piece the other sided needs to pull the puzzle together.

Sort of gives "Don't ask, don't tell" a whole new meaning.

[groundup]

I completely agree in respect to the puzzle analogy. We all get the OPSEC (I am trying to remember the acronym for the anti-terrorism/spy) briefings and they all seem to say the same thing. I've sat in the DFAC and heard more information than I should have ever known. I've heard Soldier's tell their loved ones more information than most other Soldiers know.

Before posting my last post, I rewrote it all. I tried to figure out how I would like to say that we are still Americans. Loose lips sink ships - yes. But sometimes you need to be able to blow a whistle and not have negative repercussions. And honestly, I don't mind people reading my correspondence... when I don't know the person. If my NCOs or Officers were reading all of my correspondence and it had personal things, I would feel really [strike]embarrassed[/strike] oppressed. In a fairy-tale world what we say in those emails to our wives would have no bearing on anything. Then again, it's not.

There really is no black & white with this subject. That is probably why they needed to take such drastic measures as limiting communication. Unfortunately, a Soldier that wants to get information out will always find a way.

Daver: I can easily setup an email account to publish to my blog. It can be done on this forum too.

[blue02hd]

Groundup,

I respectfully disagree with your post that this is not a black and white subject. It is.

If I were a civilian, or sad to say, a conventional soldier in the military today, I might agree. I mean after all,"if we can't expect freedom of speech, what the hell we fighting for right? " BUT, I need to point out that this is PS.com. You are not speaking to average Americans, soldiers, or what not. ( Well, maybe some what not). True Quiet Professionals rank personal attention and ego stroking a little lower than all others. Vetted individuals here fully understand the dangers of "loose lips", and go out of their way safe guard against it. When we take our oaths, we offer up our personal freedoms in order to ensure the sheep can maintain theirs.

We expect more here of ourselves and our teammates, and when the day comes that our personal interests outweigh our commitment to the teams, then that is the day we need to look for another job. That plan of action begins in SFAS, and is one of the basic stones that QP's build their foundations on. So you see, having been a product of this system, I cannot agree with your point.

If you want to practice democracy and argue for your civil rights, our corner of the world isn't where you need to be.

[sg1987]

Originally Posted by blue02hd

When we take our oaths, we offer up our personal freedoms in order to ensure the sheep can maintain theirs.

That's gonna make the best quote list ; ego stroking or not!

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by groundup

Before posting my last post, I rewrote it all. I tried to figure out how I would like to say that we are still Americans. Loose lips sink ships - yes. But sometimes you need to be able to blow a whistle and not have negative repercussions. And honestly, I don't mind people reading my correspondence... when I don't know the person.

Spoken like a true private.

"Blowing the whistle" is for civilians. If you feel the need to "tell on" your Lt, squad leader, company commander etc; go and see his or her Commander or CSM. That is of course you stand firm in your convictions and possess a set of balls to do so.

Whining to a bunch of "civilians" that your company commander ordered no showers for a week and you had sand in your panties or you had to eat cold MRE’s for 48 hours, it hurt your feelings and you think its wrong; is NOT food for public consumption. It's whining pure and simple.

While you might set up a blog and whine about your company commander, if you do it on active duty expect repercussions.

I've never been assigned to a military unit that the Commander and Command Sergeants Major didn’t have an "open door" policy. IF you got balls you take them up on that open door policy. Real soldiers knock and walk through those doors, sissies whine to the public.


Team Sergeant