About to place order for HK417....opinions??

[jatx]

Originally Posted by NightHawk756

The main thing I like is the lack of carbon build-up that the ar15 system seems to puke over everything with only a few rounds expended. I like the idea of a much quicker clean-up time after an excercise.

If that's driving your purchase, you might consider a POF, given the nickel silicon coating they use on their internals. After a weekend of 1000+ rounds, I literally sprayed mine down with carb cleaner, let it air dry then ran a couple of patches through the barrel and it was good to go.

[Books]

In between classes about a year and a half ago, I pulled a detail at a range where guys who know about these sorts of things work (sometimes the guy who cleans up needs a clearance, eh?) and the SFC running us showed us his HK416. It looked brand new and nearly spotless and I asked how he liked it. He said he had had it for a couple of months and had put about 5,000 rounds through it without cleaning it as part of a trial for HK. Said he hadn't had one problem with it. I didn't get to shoot it, though we did get to take advantage of the rest of the arsenal laid out for the day. . .

Sometimes when you're voluntold to do a detail, it ain't such a bad thing

Books

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by NightHawk756

I understand your disbelief since you've been led to believe that price. But simply put, I don't know where such an exagerated price could have come from. Since it's practically an M4 with a better operating system. Even a fully optioned out system I couldn't see going for more than 4-5k.

Nighthawk:

I haven't "been led to believe that price" I spoke with the guy at the unit that ordered them. That was the price to the USG. Period. I would not imply that people here are lying or stupid, either.

BTW, the P7M13 shouldn't cost over $1000 either, but it does.

Originally Posted by NightHawk756

As far as the search, I used the search tab at the top of the page. I used HK416, HK417, H&K416 and H&K417 and each one said no results found.

Attention to detail. You left out the space between the HK and the 416. The HK is too short for the search engine, but the 416 turns up 16 hits, including this one, most all have some relevance to the weapons system.

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Showing results 1 to 16 of 16

Originally Posted by NightHawk756

The main thing I like is the lack of carbon build-up that the ar15 system seems to puke over everything with only a few rounds expended. I like the idea of a much quicker clean-up time after an excercise.

Funny, I am getting better than 1,000 rounds between cleanings with no malfunctions. Crane NWC's M-4 program manager tells me that the current M-4 system should be fine up to 5,000 rounds without cleaning.

What kind of M-4 are you running, what kind of mags, what ammo, how old and how many rounds do the weapons have through them, are they being maintained properly, are you lubricating them properly, and what is your MTBF/MTBS?

Inquiring minds want to know.

TR

[NightHawk756]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Nighthawk:

I would not imply that people here are lying or stupid, either.

Sorry, my fault, that's the way I took it.

Attention to detail. You left out the space between the HK and the 416. The HK is too short for the search engine, but the 416 turns up 16 hits, including this one, most all have some relevance to the weapons system.

Got me there. My fault. That's why I listed the ways I searched. The search engine is a little more finicky than I figured I guess.

Funny, I am getting better than 1,000 rounds between cleanings with no malfunctions. Crane NWC's M-4 program manager tells me that the current M-4 system should be fine up to 5,000 rounds without cleaning.

What kind of M-4 are you running, what kind of mags, what ammo, how old and how many rounds do the weapons have through them, are they being maintained properly, are you lubricating them properly, and what is your MTBF/MTBS?

Inquiring minds want to know.

TR

I wasn't referring to malfunctions. I was referring to clean-up. I'm the type that can't go without cleaning my rifle after a detail. Call it OCD or whatever, but the thought of a much quicker cleaning session is very appealing.

As far as what type M4, my personal is a Colt AR which I used for a short time on our Tactical Team until we got our Bushmaster M4's. As far as mags.....I have 3 30rd Colts and I had 7 30rd bushmaster mags for the bush. No cheap aftermarket versions. As far as ammo....that depended really on what the state provided most of the time, but it was always name brand stuff of mostly the federal make.

Now.......... our Bushmasters had to be returned for them to fix a problem that they "didn't have" if you know what I mean. But when they were returned, they never did it again. Go figure. They were having ejection problems. Instead of ejecting the spent round, the brass was getting shoved above the gas tube as the bolt came forward and only partially loaded the next round resulting in a jam. And this happened on 2 thirds of our teams rifles at different intervals. No rhyme or reason and they were all cleaned/lubed after each use. I tell you this simply for the story value. I, in no way imply that carbon build-up caused these malfunctions nor do I debunk it.

And I'm no guru to say the least, but all the operators in the field that are having malfunctions from carbon build-up from lack of cleaning opportunities is the whole reason for the move to gas-piston systems is it not?? Along with severe environments also. I'm just wondering.

[Peregrino]

NightHawke - I've had negative experiences with Bushmaster rifles too - the one I have has been fixed and since retired. Start with a quality weapon. Next - most people don't know how to clean their weapons. The old "IG, White Glove" inspections are BS. Keep the M-16/M-4 "functionally clean" and properly lubed and it will go thousands of rounds without a malfunction. As an LEO - even on a SWAT Team - what is the likelyhood that you will fire a tiny fraction of that even in training?

The only time mine gets "filthy" is when I'm playing with the suppressor. Not even a piston system will prevent that. Check out Larry Vickers' Tactical Tips (http://www.vickerstactical.com/tacticaltips.htm). It'll save me a lot of typing and any differences I have with him are on the order of "happy - glad".

Start with a quality AR, maintain it properly, feed it quality ammo from quality magazines, and there is no real reason to buy a gas piston system except "I want one". (Wait a minute - didn't TR do a thorough discussion of this just recently?)

The Army's problems with the AR system are not going to be fixed by adopting a different weapon, gas piston or no. Most of the weapons I "played with" over the years were well beyond their useful life. Equipment, specifically weapons, break and/or wear out. They need replacement after a reasonable life cycle (read ROUND COUNT). When the military is willing to spend as much on small arms procurement, maintenance, and operator training as they do to keep a carrier group at sea for a week, all of these "problems" will disappear. (And Gee Whiz contractors won't need to sell us "The Next Great Idea".)

My .02 - Peregrino

[NightHawk756]

Originally Posted by Peregrino

NightHawke - I've had negative experiences with Bushmaster rifles too - the one I have has been fixed and since retired. Start with a quality weapon. Next - most people don't know how to clean their weapons. The old "IG, White Glove" inspections are BS. Keep the M-16/M-4 "functionally clean" and properly lubed and it will go thousands of rounds without a malfunction. As an LEO - even on a SWAT Team - what is the likelyhood that you will fire a tiny fraction of that even in training?

The only time mine gets "filthy" is when I'm playing with the suppressor. Not even a piston system will prevent that. Check out Larry Vickers' Tactical Tips (http://www.vickerstactical.com/tacticaltips.htm). It'll save me a lot of typing and any differences I have with him are on the order of "happy - glad".

Start with a quality AR, maintain it properly, feed it quality ammo from quality magazines, and there is no real reason to buy a gas piston system except "I want one". (Wait a minute - didn't TR do a thorough discussion of this just recently?)

The Army's problems with the AR system are not going to be fixed by adopting a different weapon, gas piston or no. Most of the weapons I "played with" over the years were well beyond their useful life. Equipment, specifically weapons, break and/or wear out. They need replacement after a reasonable life cycle (read ROUND COUNT). When the military is willing to spend as much on small arms procurement, maintenance, and operator training as they do to keep a carrier group at sea for a week, all of these "problems" will disappear. (And Gee Whiz contractors won't need to sell us "The Next Great Idea".)

My .02 - Peregrino

Thanks for the response.

I guess, truth be known, it's a little bit "want" also. But I've really just had a hard-on for an AR style 308. So that's the main system I've been looking in to. But I've been considering the 416 too.

The likelyhood of firing multiple rounds on a tactical team is minimal at best. But as I said, I'm not really concerned about malfunctions. But mainly ease of clean-up and the "want" factor. But less of a chance of one is good. And the fact of having a tactical .308 is appealing. Hmmmmm, is "tactcial .308" an oxymoron????

[NightHawk756]

Originally Posted by Peregrino

The only time mine gets "filthy" is when I'm playing with the suppressor. Not even a piston system will prevent that. Check out Larry Vickers' Tactical Tips (http://www.vickerstactical.com/tacticaltips.htm). It'll save me a lot of typing and any differences I have with him are on the order of "happy - glad".

The link isn't working for me.

But, Vickers was talking about the lack of cleaning and malfunctions on the link that Trip Wire posted in this thread. Here's the link again....http://www.hkpro.com/hk416.htm

[The Reaper]

It is the closing parentheses that got picked up in the html.

Try this one:

http://www.vickerstactical.com/tacticaltips.htm

TR

[NightHawk756]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

It is the closing parentheses that got picked up in the html.

Try this one:

http://www.vickerstactical.com/tacticaltips.htm

TR

Thanks man. Yeah it's working without the parentheses.

[82ndtrooper]

Originally Posted by NightHawk756

Thanks man. Yeah it's working without the parentheses.

"Man"....................I've gotten along here by addressing the professionals by their screen name. This case would be TR, or The Reaper, or Sir.

Just a thought.

[NightHawk756]

Originally Posted by 82ndtrooper

"Man"....................I've gotten along here by addressing the professionals by their screen name. This case would be TR, or The Reaper, or Sir.

Just a thought.

Well, maybe that's another fault of mine I guess. When talking to someone more than just a greeting I use man or brother. Just something I do and don't think twice about. I mean no disrespect or dishonor whatsoever.

If I've offended you Mr. Reaper then I apologize. Because I would certainly never insult anyone serving me and my country. I never served. My father was 82nd. I have nothing but absolute respect for all operators.

[NightHawk756]

UPDATE:

Well, as I feared and some said here, it's not going to happen. As I said before, the President said it could be purchased on letterhead and I even spoke to an armorer today and he thought I could also.

But I actually got to speak to their LE guy today and he confirmed it for me. The problem lies in the fact that they aren't making a semi version. So all the select-fire rifles are held under the Assault Rifle import ban. I never wanted a select fire anyway, but was lead to believe the semi would be available. I definately wasn't interested in the federal hoops and one time tax stamp that's involved with auto weapons. I'm also not going to buy a rifle with my personal money and then have to turn it into the department when I retire.

Anyway, I wanted to update the thread. I'm actually looking into LWRC rifles to actually get a piston rifle. Thanks jbour13 for the LWRC link!!

[NousDefionsDoc]

He likes it when you call him "Dude". The Team Sergeant is fond of "Cool Breeze". AM likes "Homey" and Peregrino prefers "Papasito Lindo" pr "Papasote".

[Air.177]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

He likes it when you call him "Dude". The Team Sergeant is fond of "Cool Breeze". AM likes "Homey" and Peregrino prefers "Papasito Lindo" pr "Papasote".

What's Your Preference NDD? Sneak Dog perhaps? Nous Defions Dude maybe?

LMAO

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

He likes it when you call him "Dude". The Team Sergeant is fond of "Cool Breeze". AM likes "Homey" and Peregrino prefers "Papasito Lindo" pr "Papasote".

Tango su "papasito" colgante. Peregrino