Knife in the SF Crest and Patch

[Airbornelawyer]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Who can tell me what knife it is, who designed it, and why it was chosen?

Steeped in legend, but the answer isn't really clear. Three knives (stilettos, really) compete for the honor - the V-42 used by the First Special Service Force, the Fairbairn-Sykes used by Rangers and the OSS dagger. All were ultimately based on the Fairbairn-Sykes, though. The 1st SSF, the Rangers and the OSS Jedburgh teams were all part of the heritage of SF, and veterans of these units were there at SF's birth, so all have a claim.

The Wilkinson-made knifes issued to Rangers in England were straightforward Fairbairn-Sykes types.

The OSS knife made by Landers, Frary & Clark was based on the Fairbairn-Sykes (Fairbairn himself designed the "pancake-flipper" sheath). The knife on the USASOC patch and crest is based on the OSS design.

The official story is that the patch designed by Capt. John Frye used the design of the V-42 commando knife ("Knife, Fighting Commando Type V-42, including Leather Sheath"). The V-42 was made by W.R. Case & Co. and was based on a design sketched out by Col. Robert Frederick, Pat O'Neill* and Col. Orval Baldwin.

But while the knife on the SF crest is more clearly a V-42 - note the pointed skull crusher pommel (Col. Baldwin's idea) - the knife on the SF patch is less distinct. It has a rounded end more like a Fairbairn-Sykes or OSS knife. And while it may have been adapted from these WW2 stilettos, it actually looks more like a Roman gladius in its dimensions, so maybe Capt. Frye had more than one weapon in mind.

Many China Marines serving in Shanghai in the 1930s picked up Fairbairn-Sykes knives (a China Marine in one of WEB Griffin's series of novels was portrayed as having played poker with Supt. Fairbairn) and they were popular, especially with some of the early Raiders. But the U.S.-manufactured versions supplied to the Corps were not well-made and Marines trained in regular knife-fighting rather than stiletto-specific techniques tended to break them, so they lost their luster in the Corps.
_____

* SGM Pat O'Neill was a veteran of the Shanghai Municipal Police who knew both Fairbairns and Mr. Sykes and was familiar with their knife. In The Devil's Brigade, he was the bespectacled guy who gives Claude Akins a block of hand-to-hand combat instruction in the mess hall.

[Airbornelawyer]

A V-42 commando knife:

[Airbornelawyer]

The OSS knife (with the pancake flipper in the background):

[Razor]

Just so Crip can use this e-beating as a learning experience, the British equivalent of the American Office of Strategic Services was the Special Operations Executive, or SOE. The SOE was, in fact, created and operating over a year before the OSS's progenitor, the Coordinator of Information (COI) office was established (SOE was established in early 1940; COI in July 1941, OSS in June 1942). The CIA has a good history of the OSS available on their website at: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/oss/ .

NDD, I believe the reason SF's lineage is linked to the FSSF and the Ranger Companies vice the OSS's OGs is due to that whole "the OSS was technically a civilian organization, not a military unit" argument in the TIOH's eyes. Why let reality bugger up a regulation-consistant story, right?

AL, 'knifes'? As for the look of the dagger in the SF SSI, I'll bet that CPT Frye intended for it to be a V42, but mass production embroidery techniques in the 50s was limited in its ability to accurately reproduce the details of the dagger.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Ding Ding! A Winnuh.

There were about 4k V42s made during WWII, only issued to 1SSF (Ranger Lineage - the DOD can kiss my ass). There is one original that I know of for sale right now - $5k.

AL, you are not permitted to answer anymore questions on this thread. LOL

Lightening bolts on the patch and colors?

[Airbornelawyer]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
AL, you are not permitted to answer anymore questions on this thread. LOL

Lightening bolts on the patch and colors?

Lightning bolts? Officially - someone else can answer - but I was told in Group that they symbolized the three types of diving: sky, SCUBA and....

[Surgicalcric]

Originally posted by Razor
Just so Crip can use this e-beating as a learning experience...

I cant be right all the time...

I enjoy the learning though, however humbling it may be.

Think I will make my way back to the TMC now.

[The Reaper]

Originally posted by Surgicalcric
I cant be right all the time...

I enjoy the learning though, however humbling it may be.

Think I will make my way back to the TMC now.

Before you leave, drop and start pushing SC towards Georgia, it will help oxygenate your brain cell.

TR

Ranger heritage got tossed in with SF because after the Korean War, there were no units to continue the heritage (no one really expected to see Ranger Companies or Battalions reformed) so SF units were assigned the heritage of various Ranger companies. To some extent, the same was true of 1SSF, although it had a clearly more suitable heritage for SF.

As a result of this, when the Ranger Battalions were stood up, they were stuck with the heritage/lineage of Merril's Marauders but NOT the Ranger Battalions of WWII or the Ranger Companies of Korea. It took a while for the Army to sort that one out (why the Ranger Battalions officially wore the Merril's Marauder type crest and shoulder patch before President Reagan authorized the scroll).

[Tuukka]

Originally posted by Surgicalcric
Fairbairn Sykes Commando Knife that was only issued to the 1st Special Service Force.

Capt. William Ewart Fairbairn and Capt. Eric Anthony Sykes

United States Special Forces finds its roots in the British OSS.

Bet the SAS soldiers who carried the FS fighting knife might have something to say to that verse...

[NousDefionsDoc]

The lineage is dicked up, IMO, because the legs that do lineages didn't take the time or bother to understand the units they were dealing with.

Again my opinion, but the 1st SSF was a Ranger Battalion. As were Merrill's etc.

Jedburgs were split As. 1/4 As. LOL

I respect the achievements of all those other units, but they are not my heritage.

OSS, JACK, SOG/SF Vietnam, right on up until today.

If it was like they say, Col. Bank would not be called the father of SF, Col. Fredrickson would.

GH is no doubt correct about the why, but IMO, they still don't have it right.

One other thing - everybody makes such a big deal out of the 1SSF being mixed Canuck and Gringo. I don't see that as such a big deal at all. Canucks been jumping the border to get into fights with us for a long time. Many thousands served in the US Army during Vietnam. Except for the French talking ones, they're just Yankees, and even the French talking ones are just Yankee Cajuns.

[Denny]

the three lightning bolts repersent the three insertions methods of SF land air and sea, and the color repersents that SF works with all the branches of the military?

[Razor]

IIRC, the teal color is TIOH's 'branch non-specific' color; since SF wasn't a branch back when the patch was created, it was made in teal. To support the color theory, the 1st Space Battalion and its three companies just received their guideons here, and they are teal (there's no 'space' branch in the Army).

[Airbornelawyer]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
The lineage is dicked up, IMO, because the legs that do lineages didn't take the time or bother to understand the units they were dealing with.

Again my opinion, but the 1st SSF was a Ranger Battalion. As were Merrill's etc.

Jedburgs were split As. 1/4 As. LOL

I respect the achievements of all those other units, but they are not my heritage.

OSS, JACK, SOG/SF Vietnam, right on up until today.

If it was like they say, Col. Bank would not be called the father of SF, Col. Fredrickson would.

GH is no doubt correct about the why, but IMO, they still don't have it right.

I agree that mission-wise the 1st SSF is closer to the 75th and probably belongs in its lineage. I had mentioned Jedburgh teams earlier, but it occurs to me that the OSS Operational Groups Razor mentioned are probably the truest forefathers of SF. And TIOH may not have noticed, but they did have an Army designation - 2671st Special Reconnaissance Battalion, Separate (Provisional).

OGs: Generally 15 men each. Usually two junior officers and 13 NCOs. Spoke the language of their AOs. Recruited from infantry and combat engineers, with a few medical and commo guys thrown in. Cross-trained in each others' specialties. Missions were:

- Cutting enemy lines of communication
- Attacking vital enemy installations
- Organizing and training local resistance elements
- Boosting morale and effort of local resistance elements
- Furnishing intelligence to local Allied Armies

Sounds familiar, huh?

The first ODA?:

[NousDefionsDoc]

Ok, never let it be said I am not willing to compromise. I'll accept OGs and retain the Jedburgs as split As on special assignment. Those Jedburg commo guys were nothing if not 18Es.

But OSS, not the others.