03-02-2007, 16:06
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#16
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 656
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Sorry I left off the attribution; this was Reuter's (World) News Service, 28 February. I posted it without any personal comment in order to initiate conversation without any slant one way or the other; but here's my two cents.
Over the years I've seen refusal to wear a blue helmet, deploy in harm's way and now overt involvement in PACs despite orders not to do so. While you may find an order objectionable, if it is lawful - follow the lawful order. The order was clear and unambiguous; he chose not to follow it and he's fortunate all he had in his future was a discharge. The discipline of the military is not for everyone.
Administrator: sorry once again.
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SouthernDZ is offline
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03-02-2007, 16:42
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#17
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Republic of Columbus
Posts: 805
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by echoes
And I must respectfully disagree. Take it from me, the church is not the only place folks can hear the "good news."
There is many a bar, garden, park etc...IMHO. Depending on how it is followed through.
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Agree completely.
He obviously felt muzzled to the point that he couldn’t do his job due to what I would call "P.C. regulations” that we all work under in America today. I’m thinking that this man felt his religious principles trumped his military duty – therefore he should not be in the military (much akin to a conscientious objector)
Corporations don’t hire Ministers so this type of conflict doesn’t occur. The military does, thus setting the stage for conflict of interest.(BTW, what became of the Muslim chaplain that got into hot water in Gitmo?)
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Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. - John Adams
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sg1987 is offline
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03-02-2007, 19:48
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#18
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Quiet Professional
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Location: Vermont
Posts: 3,093
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sg1987
following this line of reason a committed Christian Minister should then never serve as a Chaplin - unless he feels called to be Chaplin for the military first and then a Christian Minister second..
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Right, and what's your point? Is this clown an officer, does he have a commission, is he not responsible to obey the lawful orders of those appointed
over him, etc, etc, etc? If a committed Christian Minister cannot live by those tenets you are absolutely correct-there is no place for him in the military. As a matter of fact anyone who has aspirations of serving in the military that has a personal conflict with living up to the oath of office that they take, which as I recall is without reservation or hesitation, should serve whatever group of folks, country, mankind, or cult in some other profession. You cannot have one set of standards for one officer because he wears the cloth and another because he does not.
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Wenn einer von uns fallen sollt, der Andere steht für zwei.
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Jack Moroney (RIP) is offline
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03-02-2007, 20:00
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#19
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Republic of Columbus
Posts: 805
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jack Moroney
Right, and what's your point? .
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Sir,
I'm actually discovering my point as I go with help from you and others in this forum that share of their time, wisdom, experience, and knowledge. A sincere thanks to you.
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Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. - John Adams
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sg1987 is offline
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03-02-2007, 20:15
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#20
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Vermont
Posts: 3,093
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sg1987
Sir,
I'm actually discovering my point as I go with help from you and others in this forum that share of their time, wisdom, experience, and knowledge. A sincere thanks to you.
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Okay, look-perhaps my response was a little harsh and out of line. I have dealt with folks of the cloth and other technical professionals who felt that they were special because of their calling or MOS and when they found out that they too had to perform duties and responsibilities expected of them by regulation and directive the excuse was, but I am a ....... (fill in the blank). The bottom line with me, and perhaps it is only me, that everyone is a soldier first and a "whatever" next and as soldiers they have sworn oaths to perform as such. For some reason, some, not all, feel that they are civilians in uniform and the military rules just don't make sense or fit their chosen path so they conform to whatever "higher calling or standard" that they see fit. Well that never washed with me. I do not wish to belabor the point, I am too damn old to change my point of view on this, and you are welcome to your point of view or position. I have no corner on the market in wisdom, experience or knowledge.
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Wenn einer von uns fallen sollt, der Andere steht für zwei.
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Jack Moroney (RIP) is offline
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03-02-2007, 20:25
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#21
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Republic of Columbus
Posts: 805
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jack Moroney
I have no corner on the market in wisdom, experience or knowledge.
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Yeah, but ya got a lot more than me......and class, true class. It’s an honor and privilege to be able to learn from you sir. Thanks again.
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Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. - John Adams
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sg1987 is offline
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03-02-2007, 20:40
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#22
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Quiet Professional
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: North Texas, I can see OK from here!
Posts: 2,077
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jack Moroney
I have dealt with folks of the cloth and other technical professionals who felt that they were special because of their calling or MOS and when they found out that they too had to perform duties and responsibilities expected of them by regulation and directive the excuse was, but I am a ....... (fill in the blank).
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Why do Doctors always fill this profile? Maybe it was the MASH TV-show thing.
I have run into lots of MP's with the same attitude.
I think the one that floored me the most was this E-4 driver/administered assistant of a Signal BN Commander...(She got this job straight out of AIT at her first duty assignment) and she thought she spoke with the authority of a LTC, she also thought her sh** didn’t stink as well. But the most amazing part was the number of idiots that actually played into her game.
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SF18C is offline
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03-03-2007, 08:59
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#23
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Administrators
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fayetteville, NC
Posts: 2,264
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sg1987
Sir,
I'm actually discovering my point as I go with help from you and others in this forum that share of their time, wisdom, experience, and knowledge. A sincere thanks to you.
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Thanks for acknowledging that you didn't know what your point was when originally posting. In the future let others that are SMEs and know the full situation make their point so we can learn from them, not pointlessly talking about things and wasting other folks time by needing to come in and setting things straight. Discussion is one thing, but figuring out what your point is many non-quality posts later is not what we're looking for on our forums.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sg1987
BTW, what became of the Muslim chaplain that got into hot water in Gitmo?
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Another example...use a search engine / news search and be informative instead of wanting someone else to find out for you. We're not here to do your homework. Let's try to keep posts quality and not quantity!
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Dan is offline
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03-03-2007, 09:29
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#24
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Guerrilla Chief
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Roger. Wilco.
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Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. - John Adams
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sg1987 is offline
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03-03-2007, 18:25
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#25
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I think a point has been missed. Military Chaplains are required in most cases to give non denominational services. One Chaplain is often providing spiritual guidance to a variety of religious believers.
I have been to services in the field where the Chaplain asked the faith of all those there, and after getting an answer, provided a service that would have made any old Southern Baptist minister proud.
Jim
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Breaking a law or violation of a regulation is not a mistake. It is willful misconduct.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen." [Samuel Adams]
Jim
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incommin is offline
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03-03-2007, 19:12
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#26
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The military chaplains I've met have performed their duties (all of them - not just providing religious services) with professionalism and dedication to whatever their religious calling happened to be, without fanfare or theatrics. My favorite was LTC Strange; SWCS IIRC. He had no problems describing himself as an "Army Green, Protestant" (one each, definitely non-standard issue). He ministered to everyone IAW their needs; didn't even have a problem tending to us "secular humanists". I met him when I was forced to take a second religion class at Campbell University. He impressed me enough that when it was time to marry the girlfriend I tracked him down and asked him to do the dirty deed. Somehow I doubt he would be sympathetic to the plight of this Navy Chaplain. Peregrino
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Peregrino is offline
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03-03-2007, 20:22
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#27
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Neither would my favorite, Chaplain Dennington.
TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910
De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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The Reaper is offline
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03-03-2007, 21:30
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#28
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Location: Colorado Springs
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sg1987
Roger. Wilco.
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Pick one; you can't use both:
Roger - Transmission received and understood.
Wilco - Transmission received, understood and I will comply with the instructions provided.
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Razor is offline
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03-04-2007, 21:50
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#29
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Guerrilla Chief
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Razor
Pick one; you can't use both:
Roger - Transmission received and understood.
Wilco - Transmission received, understood and I will comply with the instructions provided.
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At one point in my military career, that would have cost me 1000 pushups.
Ranks up there with "over and out", a phrase that makes me cringe when I hear it.
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So let me fill my children's hearts
With heroes tales and hope it starts
A fire in them so deeds are done
With no vain sighs for moments gone
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Monsoon65 is offline
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03-04-2007, 22:03
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#30
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Quiet Professional
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Location: Scottsdale, AZ
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Monsoon65
At one point in my military career, that would have cost me 1000 pushups.
Ranks up there with "over and out", a phrase that makes me cringe when I hear it.
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That like hearing a call for a radio check - standard reply is 2 by 2 by 2 -
Too loud - Too clear - Too often.
BT
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Hipshot
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a.k.a. Sheep Dog Daddy
God whispers in your soul and speaks to your mind.
Sometimes when you don't have time to listen, He has to throw a brick at you.
It's your choice: Listen to the whisper, or wait for the brick.
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