Sheep/Wolves

[Books]

I don't know about that. . . just wrapping up S, A, R/R and I've got to say that after a few weeks of no sleep, I tend to like caprines better than bipeds.

Books

[Lothar]

I was given the same reading material when I attended an active shooter school put on by the ALERRT Center out of San Marcos,TX. As a LEO and soldier the article by LTC Grossman really put into words what many of us have believed for years. Great post! To all of my fellow Sheepdogs: Stay safe out there.

[longrange1947]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

Anytime that thought or something close to it passed through my mind all I did was think of the children. I and most soldiers I know would trade their lives for a childs.

Children are special lambs that can easily grow into sheepdogs. It is our job to give them that opportunity.

[dennisw]

I like the analogy except that it gives certain folks an out. I think it's everyone duty to become a sheep dog if their country needs them.

Rudyard Kipling
(1865-1936)

Tommy

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o'beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:

O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's ``Thank you, Mister Atkins,'' when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's ``Thank you, Mr. Atkins,'' when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy how's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints:
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;

While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind,"
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!

[Surgicalcric]

Originally Posted by dennisw

I like the analogy except that it gives certain folks an out. I think it's everyone duty to become a sheep dog if their country needs them.

While I concur its everyone's responsibility to do something, not everyone possesses the intestinal fortitude to do what is necessary. Talking the talk isnt walking the walk.

Crip

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Surgicalcric

While I concur its everyone's responsibility to do something, not everyone possesses the intestinal fortitude to do what is necessary. Talking the talk isnt walking the walk.

Crip

And to add to that I don't want someone next to me that does not want to be there.......

Also some are not fit enough to serve.....

[Backwoods]

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.



That was always my favorite part of that poem.....how true it is. Kipling was an unbelievable poet.

[dennisw]

Talking the talk isnt walking the walk.

I'm not sure I understand the relevance of this statement.

I think in a society where we have equal rights under the law, how do we not have equal responsibilty to serve. Granted, some folks are unable to serve in any productive capacity. Furthermore, I'm not talking strickly about combat arms. It's fine to say the sheepdogs will protect the sheep, but how is it the responisibility of some and not all.

TS talks about not wanting to fight in situations where he is unsure of the folks on his left and right. Do they want to be there? Maybe that is the reality of the situation. However, is it equitable for some to risk their lives while others do not? Although there is honor, there is very little equity.

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by dennisw

I'm not sure I understand the relevance of this statement.

I think in a society where we have equal rights under the law, how do we not have equal responsibilty to serve. Granted, some folks are unable to serve in any productive capacity. Furthermore, I'm not talking strickly about combat arms. It's fine to say the sheepdogs will protect the sheep, but how is it the responisibility of some and not all.

TS talks about not wanting to fight in situations where he is unsure of the folks on his left and right. Do they want to be there? Maybe that is the reality of the situation. However, is it equitable for some to risk their lives while others do not? Although there is honor, there is very little equity.

I acknowledge your protestations; I even sympathize a little. I just don't think you're accepting the realities of human nature. Despite the sentiments expressed in the D of I, all men are not created equal. Indisputable FACT: not everyone can be a sheepdog. Actually, I would contend that very few people are endowed (by temperament or training) with those unique qualities that predispose them to being a "sheepdog". (Even then, you never know how the dice will fall until the moment arrives.) This might be the one time Karl Marx got the Socialist ideal right: "from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs" (or something like that ). Somebody else said "the burden falls heaviest on those best able to bear it". IOW - life's not fair. I'm with TS on this one. I don't want sheep backing my play against the wolves either. Peregrino

[Surgicalcric]

Originally Posted by dennisw

I'm not sure I understand the relevance of this statement...

I would've thought given the context of the discussion the relevance would have been apparent. Nevertheless, its easy to talk about being a protector or a warrior. Its often different when someone is thrust into that role or when they chose it and cant live up to it. Jessica Lynch! Need I say more?

As for your comment, "Do they want to be there," those that signed on the dotted line wanted to be in the military and the military is a war-fighting machine. We aren't out on the highway planting flowers... That whole, "I signed for the college money" line makes me wanna choke the life from someone...

I concur with both TR and Peregrino; when the bullets are flying I want to know I can trust the men around me.

Crip

[dennisw]

I don't want someone next to me that does not want to be there

Actually I was paraphrasing TS's comment from above. I wasn't questioning whether or not folks who have signed the dotted line want to be there or not. With that being said, whether or not one has the ability or desire to be a sheep dog, does that diminish their responsibility to serve?

This service may not be in combat arms, but I believe as citizens there is still a duty which is required of every male citizen( I believe it is males only). We now have a volunteer army. When I volunteered, there was still a draft and most of the folks in my basic training unit were draftees. They may not of wanted to be there, but they were for the most part the best soldiers in our group.

Would they march towards the sound of battle? I don't know. However, I was a volunteer, but I never had to answer that question either, and I think it is truly unanswered until you are actually are there.

To reiterate, if someone views themselves as a sheep, does that mean they no longer have a duty as a citizen to serve and protect their country when their service is needed? If only the sheepdogs serve, once they return, should they not be afforded some special privileges for providing this service and protection?

[Peregrino]

Shades of "Starship Troopers"? IIRC that was a Fascist society. Certainly not compatible with American ideals. We have an all volunteer military. Even alternative forms of service, e.g. Peace Corps, requires volunteerism. When only a small percentage of the population is inclined/motivated to serve (in any capacity) what do you do with the rest? Would you disenfranchise everyone else? Danger Will Robinson; that road leads to tyranny too.

You're right to question the (potential) inequality (and until the "moment of truth", which doesn't come for everybody, that's all it is - a potential inequality) of the sacrifice/payment, but the sheep can contribute too. Even among those who do volunteer - have you thought about the mindset that puts people into CS and CSS vs. CA units? (Before I get nuked - yes, in 28 years I met a couple of sheepdogs in support units; no, we won't discuss how out-of-place they were.) CS and CSS units don't have traditional "sheepdog"missions. Yet those units and (many of) the people who man them fulfill their obligation to "pay the debts free men owe their society (paraphrase)". Rumor has it some of them are even discovering heretofor untapped sheepdog potential. Would you denigrate their service because it's not "sheepdog" enough?

Peregrino

[dennisw]

When only a small percentage of the population is inclined/motivated to serve (in any capacity) what do you do with the rest? Would you disenfranchise everyone else?

This is my concern. I read an email about a woman whose son was deployed and she wore a t-shirt to the pta meeting which read in essence "My son is fighting in Iraq while your's is out partying." Went over like a turd in a punchbowl.

Although funny, there's an underlying sense of bitterness there. This bitterness stems IMHO from a sense of inequity.

I don't think so much about disenfranchising those who do not serve. I'm looking more at the other side of the ledger. I believe there should be greater rewards for those who do.

Americans are all about fairness and equity. I truly believe this, and from a sense of equity, if some give there all, our society should honor that. When the sheepdog returns, our society should honor them with more a yellow ribbon.

Although not completely on point, in other societies, there were economic rewards associated with acts of valor. For instance in Greece, the winners of the Olympics were given the stephonos or wreath. This was just a symbol. They were also exempted from taxes, their children's higher education was paid for, a statue was created of them and a gate into the city was created for them.

I appreciate the efforts of Mentor Warrior and the special operations foundation, but I believe the education of the children of fallen warriors should be paid for by our society without having to go through a charity. I think our warriors should be given preferential tax treatment (not just when they are deployed). Can an honorable society do any less?

I'm not denigrating the role of the Sheepdog, but if society as a whole asks or allows the sheepdog only to put themselves in harms' way, then a reciporal debt is owed, and I personally do not believe this diminishes the honor.

However, there is still the answered question which is inherent in your comment:

pay the debts free men owe their society

When is the last time you heard the above concept discussed? This concept was discussed regularly when I was a kid - you know when Lincoln was president. But seriously, I believe the sheepdog analogy glosses over this to a certain degree.

However, it does answer one of the questions I had. When folks ask me how my sons in Iraq and Afghanistan are doing, I try to answer them acurately and provide a certain amount of details to flesh out the story. I stopped doing that as most have a tendancy to blanche an unhealthy shade. I guess sheep really are not interested in the details.

Finally, I still do not like the attitude of some who seem to shrug when they read about a soldier dying by saying,"Well he volunteered, didn't he", as if it's just a sheepdog dead on the side of the road. This epitomizes the complete disconnect between the minset of a portion of our fellow citizens and the concept of duty, honor, country. Yeah he or she volunteered. He or she volunteered as a free man/woman to do their duty and made the ultimate sacrifice for our benefit and we all should honor that in substance and in form.

[x SF med]

The interesting thing about this whole thread is that we are (for the most part) sheepdogs preaching to other sheepdogs... or to parents of sheepdogs. How do we get others to understand? Is it worth the effort to try to get the sheep to understand, or do we just do what we do, as we are genetically programmed (it seems) to protect the sheep?

Nothing profound, just observations/questions that are rattling around in my steel pot placement area.