Tactics gone wrong - Page 2

**Kyobanim** · 10-01-2006, 06:44

Quote:

The SWAT team that shot the dirt bag in Fl yesterday is going to catch hell from the liberal left...... the dirt bag never fired a round and the team emptied their magazines..... my buddies tell me the bad guy was hit over a hundred times......at close range. Real close range.

From the Orlando Sentinel
Gary Taylor and Kelly Griffith | Sentinel Staff Writers
Posted October 1, 2006

Face to face with an armed man suspected of killing a Polk County deputy sheriff, SWAT officers riddled his body with 68 bullets.

Altogether, nine officers fired 110 times Friday at Angilo Freeland, who Polk County Sheriff Grady Judd said "executed" one of his deputies.

"That's all the bullets we had, or we would have shot him more," Judd said after autopsy results were released Saturday. (LOL)

Seems that "real close range" was right on top of the bad guy. Seems to me that someone needs to spend more time on the range.

I think the sherriff needs to stop talking so much. He's just giving ammunition to the people who will sue for excessive force. It won't be the first time down here.

Full story here.

NSDQ · 10-01-2006, 09:38

Thanks for posting the full story access, Kyo.
When I first read this, I thought that sounds excessive. Then I had to remind myself to get all the facts. After reading the link that Kyo posted it defintely brought a different light to my thoughts, not that this story alone presented all the facts.
"Excessive" as defined by webster's-" going beyond the usual,necessary, or proper limit or degree ". This man has a history of criminal behavior, shot three LEO, killing two of them, stolen weapons & ammo, & is hiding to evade capture hoping to escape accountability & responsibility for his choices. The only thing standing between this killer & other innocent people is brave men/women doing what civil government has given them authority, training, & equipment to do.
Excessive! I say to those that would ask this question, I will answer this when you answer these. Is it execessive when an LEO believes he is about to write a citiation or possibly just give a warning, to be shot in the leg? Is it a little excessive when two officers go out for a "routine" patrol, with just the intent to keep the public safe, are murdered, executed, by someone they did not know, & now are not able to return to those they love. Exactly how many bullets constitue "excessive". I would say ONE was in the case of Deputy Williams's partner's case.
I am thankfull for free press, I just wish it was not so profitable so that it would go to reporting the facts instead of trying to take facts out of context to sell stories.

NSDQ

CPTAUSRET · 10-01-2006, 10:37

Kyo:

I think you are spot on!
"That's all the bullets we had, or we would have shot him more," Judd said after autopsy results were released Saturday. (LOL)

I think the sherriff needs to stop talking so much. He's just giving ammunition to the people who will sue for excessive force. It won't be the first time down here."

More ammunition! Someone will undoubtedly pay a price for those comments! It will be found to be excessive force!

NSDQ · 10-01-2006, 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by CPTAUSRET

It will be found to be excessive force!

Would a 500lb bomb dropped on one man be considered excessive force?

CPTAUSRET · 10-01-2006, 11:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by NSDQ

Would a 500lb bomb dropped on one man be considered excessive force?

Probably not, if point fire weapons were not suitable, for whatever reason...But 20 500lber's might be.

I once salvoed 72 17lb warheads (2.75 in rockets) into the largest buddhist Monastery in the world, the rest of my platoon followed suit! We demolished it, totally excessive force, but a worthy effort, none the less!!

**Kyobanim** · 10-01-2006, 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by NSDQ

Would a 500lb bomb dropped on one man be considered excessive force?

Different scenario, different rules. You can't compare civilian procedures and tactics to military procedures and tactics.

So, do I think what happened in Lakeland was excessive? No. They reacted as their training and emotions permited; I just think the sherriff needs to use what little brain he has between his ears before he speaks or let the PIO do the talking.

"Hey Bubba, pass me another mag. This'n here done run out."

Smokin Joe · 10-01-2006, 13:49

Once deadly force is justified (and warranted) it doesn't matter how many rounds are fired. Once the justification runs out then you have an excessive force issue.

-Not a knock on you Kyo... I agree with you, the Sheriff should shut up and let certain things go unsaid.

incommin · 10-01-2006, 13:49

Those guys and girls were emotionally pumped. They did exercise some control. After "gun" and "shoot" were shouted they all stopped at one magazine!

When you say close, one officer was close enough to pick up a shirt that covered the hand the dirt bag would not show and expose the handgun he was holding.

Excessive force? After the first two or three rounds does the rest really matter. The guy did not want to give up. He had already killed two officers (one man one dog), wounded one officer, and shot at a third. He refused to show both hands when the officers were on top of him. He made the choice to go out in a hail of bullets.

Jim

jasonglh · 10-01-2006, 19:32

Quote:

Also released Saturday were autopsy results for the deputy, Vernon Matthew Williams, 39, which showed he had been shot eight times. He was not wearing a protective vest, but shots hit him in his right leg and behind his right ear, among other places.

I had heard the word "executed" used in one news report. I would agree with all of the above posters the talking head from the SO needs to STFU. As I understand it PD trains to shoot until the subject is no longer a threat. 9 Swat firing at one target=68 hits in a span of what a few seconds vs 1 man firing one gun with 8 hits? Seems reasonable to me they fired less than the criminal did...and offered the chance to give up first.

As a side note where was the vest, in the trunk? For that matter where was the dogs vest? I have several friends with the SO and I bet right now their vests are in the trunk as well while they are out tonight on patrol. One guy told me his was uncomfortable and tight my response was something like I bet your casket will be too.

BoyScout · 10-01-2006, 21:41

Jason, I have spent my life around the cops here and I have yet to see a K-9 with ballistic armor. I have seen them with shoes on and SAR dogs with blaze organge or that bright reflective yellow harnesses but that is it.

On a side note, we (us kids and a lot of the family) hounded my dad for three years before he wore his vest and even then it was made mandatory by his agentcy.

bost1751 · 10-01-2006, 22:51

The Bailey, CO thing was a bad deal no matter how you look at it. Unf ortunately the LEO has it's hands nearly tied, a major differance from SF. I aalso have tothink JEFF CO SWAT has some very highly trained officers in explosives. I never thought this until I spent a few years in law enforcement. Bigger agencies spend the money to have their people trained. I recently returned from FLETC. the instructors for ATF there are retired military EOD guys.
They know their business. Many larger departments have their explosive guys trained by people of this caliber.

The odds are stacked against LEO in a multitude of ways. The media is on site making up their versions of what is happening to get the hype the want. The hostages, in this case the 16 year old girl, wass doomed from the start. Do I agree with all this crap our society has placed on cops? Not in the least. Military and cops have tactics that differ a lot, not because of the individuals, but because of society and lawyers looking to get rich. It continues to be pushed to left more and more every year. The next factor to consider is what many are terming the new breed of cops.

The most unfortunate part of this entire episode is the girl. I dissagree with a lot of what went on, but I can't fault the cops very much. Time was staring them in the face.

jasonglh · 10-01-2006, 23:21

One of the agencies here had a vest purchased via public fundraiser by kids who were worried about the dogs safety. The K-9's here often show up in schools for programs.

It seems kinda silly to spend $15k+ on a dog and not protect it but thats just me.

Back to topic: The high school here I went to most all of the rooms are concrete block and steel with no windows. It felt much like being in a prison and when I went there last year for a graduation it looks even more so now with the metal detectors, cameras and guards.

stakk4 · 10-05-2006, 19:49

What is everyone's opinion on the often discussed (post school crimes) solution of letting teachers carry weapons? On one hand, it may help act as a deterrent. On the other, an unknown number of weapons in the hands of barely trained civilians may be more dangerous to the children or responding LEO.

Thoughts?

S

x SF med · 10-05-2006, 20:34

Bad idea to let most teachers carry guns, IMHO, all it's gonna take is one tightly wound armed teacher to just let loose.... I think it's a bad idea for most civilians to carry, for the same reason.

Cincinnatus · 10-05-2006, 21:01

Absolutely! Only the rich, the well connected, and their approved and certified praetorian guard should be allowed weapons. The common man has no need to defend himself. Weapons are far too dangerous to be allowed in the hands of the general populace.

We need to get a puking smiley.