Shooting dogs......

[Smokin Joe]

Tough situation, I'm thinking hit the dog with 00 buckshot if you don't have one shield surf the dog. Basically drill the dog with a shield, pin it to something then, contact shoot it in the head or KZ.

[Warrior-Mentor]

Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

Basically drill the dog with a shield, pin it to something then...

The dog may have some different ideas about this...seems like it would be like trying to grab a greased pig...

[casey]

Originally Posted by hoepoe

Indeed an excellent topic.

IRegarding flashbangs, i recently read that this would be dangerous in a meth lab due to explosive or unstable chemicals.

Hoepoe

Or in your AO, the ever popular, undiscovered TATP lab/safe house. I think that dog was named "shed" (?)

[casey]

I have seen the shield and light weight bomb blanket both attempted with poor results abeit in training and only against shepards. Big problem is that you have to move down to their level to secure them - that means your face, neck, hands, arms and of course legs, & crotch are now all within range of the dogs teeth. Trying to anticipate the movement of 100 lbs of moving energy attached to teeth with a shield or blanket in your hands usually has resulted in a dropped shield and blanket and the sacrifice of your left forearm while your team mates giggle and the handler sloooowly moves to withdraw.

The other thing I've noticed about these animals is they just refuse to feel sorry for themselves. Hit them with anything other than a shot that takes them out and they will come at you until they die.

Breaching is becoming less and less of an option for some of the bigger metro Departments because even with small hinge, strip charges or IV bags the big problem is doing a shot on a point wherein the dynamics change inside so fast. We have hit crack houses that were "empty" except for the shift working (1 or 2 toads) and 1 hour later there were 5 adults and 8 kids inside. Unless those signing for the warrant have full 360 eyes on the target for the duration of warrant approval, take down/planning meeting & move to target usually they will not sign off on an OK to breach.

Again, this is just my limited experience.

[Peregrino]

I've had to shoot dogs with handguns. I like dogs and having to shoot them upsets me, especially when they are usually victims too. The fact that NONE of the calibers (a mix of 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP) or rounds I used (mostly JHPs w/a few 9mm FMJs) reliably put the dogs down just adds to the problem. Short of a contact shot straight into the top of the skull, nothing resulted in instant incapacitation. My bottom line - if I have to shoot another dog I want it to be done as humanely as possible. That means quick and clean. Since I'm retired and not an LEO I probably won't be in any situations where I have to worry about using the rest of the ammo on whoever made it necessary for me to shoot the dog in the first place. So - If I have to do it again (and I have the option) I'll be using a shotgun w/#4 buck or #6 shot (probably a turkey load for the added charge weight/power). If it's outdoors I would consider 00 buck. (Yes, I keep a good mix on hand so I can use whatever's appropriate at the time.) To make it as effective as possible I'll be budgetting for a Vang comp. I've seen the results TR got with his and I'm sold on it. My .02 - Peregrino

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally Posted by Smokin Joe

Tough situation, I'm thinking hit the dog with 00 buckshot if you don't have one shield surf the dog. Basically drill the dog with a shield, pin it to something then, contact shoot it in the head or KZ.

Shields are for gurls.

[Land Shark]

It seems that I actually have some experience in the subject of this thread. As a police officer, I have had three occasions to drop pit bulls. I used an M-4 on two of them and a Crown Victoria on one. I have seen dismal performance with the use of handguns on dogs. A shoulder weapon, such as a rifle or shotgun, is the only way to go – unless you can run them over. The .223 ammunition used was never fancy. I used a 55 gr. HP on one and 55 gr. JSP on another and they did what they were supposed to do.

I have not used this drill, but one way to specifically train for shooting attacking dogs is to use a 2 or 3 liter bottle with a long cord tied to the end. Set the bottle on the ground near the backstop and run the cord between or near the shooters feet. One person starts moving away from the shooter, pulling the bottle toward the shooter for him to engage. Safety Note: stop before the bottle gets to the shooter so he doesn’t shoot himself in the foot or turn toward other people on or behind the line.

The bigger issue with LEO’s engaging dogs is that they tend to move with the gun elevated. The habit of Guns Up/Sights Up creates a tunnel vision that floats about 4 feet above the ground. Pit Bulls rarely bark before attacking. In fact, they seem to move to attack from the side or behind to surprise their prey. Operating with the muzzle depressed below the belt opens up a funnel of vision that allows the officer to see the threat faster – dog or human. Once the threat is located and recognized, then it is a simple matter of Sight-Press-Sight-Press until the threat is rendered safe – dog or human.

Flash Bangs have been successful when we’ve had intelligence about the presence of dogs. This has to be a mission planning issue because there is no time to deploy a flash when an ace-eating pit bull is launching for your business. Even when it is planned, your cover element has to be ready to make the shot(s) if/when the flash fails to deter the dog.

Thank you for the oppotunity to share,

Land Shark

[APLP]

Concur with the shotgun but no single TT&P addresses all situations, lots of variables and what if's. Shotguns are not always available to those who suddenly find themselves with the requirement to immobilize a dog.

My point with respect to conventional duty handgun and rifle ammunition is that the probability to immediately incapacitate a dog with a single round is very remote. Any handgun and rifle caliber bullet fired from short platforms designed to penetrate 12-18 inches of ballistic gelatin will create minimal muscle and bone destruction and most likely over penetrate the target.

The Le Mas armor piercing ammo demonstrates greater than 6 inch diameter living tissue permanent wound channels with respect to either appendage or thoracic cavity impacts. It does not matter how long it takes the animal to die after single round impact, it does matter how quickly the animal becomes immobile after being impacted. If a dog’s appendage bones structure, pelvic girdle, or heart and lungs are not functional after a single round impact he will very quickly sit down. Any handgun and rifle duty ammunition that will not create instantaneous death from a head shot is unsat.


- Le Mas AP 9mm CQB appendage impact when fired from the SMG
- Le Mas AP .45acp CQB head impacts

[Smokin Joe]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

Shields are for gurls.

I agree but they are pretty much mandated now days freaking sissy admins don't want meat eaters in my area.

[Five-O]

Originally Posted by NousDefionsDoc

Shields are for gurls.

NDD, I have agreed with 99.9% of your posts..you missed a little on this one....shields are for your kids. Warrior-Mentor is correct...it is nearly impossible to pin a dog intent on getting to you with a shield; its a ballistic shield not a doggy shield. Lets not forget theres an ahole in the house that owns the dog too. Best not to over think the situation...00 buck to the front of the dog...then clear the rest of the house.

[NousDefionsDoc]

My kid, or as I like to call him, The Kid, would never use a shield.

[STR8SHTR]

#6 shot (probably a turkey load for the added charge weight/power).

Peregrino funny that you should mention turkey loads for dogs. I killed a wild dog this past Tuesday while turkey hunting. Federal Flite Control #6 turkey load . The dog was at 20 yards. Full load to the face, he dropped and never made a sound or moved again.

I don't like shooting dogs either. I was a K9 handler for 6 years. But I will not tolerate being bitten either.

[Warrior-Mentor]

What kind of dog was it?

[STR8SHTR]

It was a mixed breed. Weighed about 60 pnds.

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by STR8SHTR

Peregrino funny that you should mention turkey loads for dogs. I killed a wild dog this past Tuesday while turkey hunting. Federal Flite Control #6 turkey load . The dog was at 20 yards. Full load to the face, he dropped and never made a sound or moved again.

I don't like shooting dogs either. I was a K9 handler for 6 years. But I will not tolerate being bitten either.

I understand perfectly. I spent a fair amount of time in rural areas growing up so I can readilly acknowledge the dangers of feral dogs (I don't like getting bit either). I'm glad it turned out OK. My house gun has #4 in it right now but the wife's 20 ga. stays loaded with Federal #6 turkey loads. 25-30 years ago I was programmed to use #4 buck for dangerous targets at close range. Last year I went to stock up and must have hit a dry spell. I couldn't find any in Fayetteville. I did my homework looking at range, pattern, throw weight, shot size, wounding potential, and recoil management and settled on the turkey loads. To my way of thinking if it can deal with a turkey's armor plated a** at 25-30 yds, it ought to do just fine from the bedroom door to the living room. That and they're really easy to buy this time of the year. Peregrino