Reloading equipment.

[Sten]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Sorry, I can't tell you any more, it is classified.

If I could tell you, I'd have to cut your head off and keep it in my safe at night.

TR

Just think of all the cool stuff my head could see then.....

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by Sten

My numbers, I figured the components to reload .45 ACP will cost about .13 cents a round, is that a realistic number? Quick math told me that .223 will provide a bigger round savings, but quick math is notoriously inaccurate. I have a bunch of unknowns, for example how many times can .45 brass be reloaded safely how about .223? I have read that buying in bulk will provide big savings, how much is "bulk".

I would like some kind of powder check (no squib or doubles). Is this check a gimmick or is a functional piece of equipment?

Also, if you could list the accessories that you have found indispensable that would be greatly appreciated.

These are my reloading needs: .45 ACP .223 win (match grade). After rereading Gene's post, am I to assume that the progressives are not good at rifle ammo loading? 9mm and perhaps .44 magnum down the line.
Thank you! TJ

Sten:

I will trust my old Dillon 450 for short range and practice rifle loads only. I haven't found the Dillon 550 or Hornady Auto Progressive capable of seating primers just under the rim with any consistency with rifle brass. With a bolt rifle and Palma Chambers, you really have to get the primer just under the rim or your bolt face will drag on the primer. Haven't found this to be a real issue with gas guns of service chambers due to slop in the chambers and a heavy bolt slamming the cartridge into battery. To a point of course. If that primer is seated too far out of the cartridge the bolt will detonate said primer and that is a sad face if the bolt hasn't gone into battery.

Given the things you are doing with your Fulton carbine, I would buy cases of decent surplus ammo instead of loading 5.56. Unless you intend to shoot the National Match Course or perhaps Three Gun with targets at 300 yards, issued M-193 ball will shoot just fine from your carbine and the difference in price from surplus 193 and handloaded 5.56 is insignificant in terms of time spent. Also, loading 5.56 is a pain due to the small size of the components.

I never -- never -- max load anything I have ever shot. End of statement. I retain ten fingers and both eyes after 25 years of handloading anything from BP cartridge rifles through modern centerfire, double rifles, and modern magnum rifle. Pistol the same way. There is no need to max load anything. Generally, max loads give marginal increases in velocity and significant decreases in accuracy. Pistol or rifle -- doesn't matter. Avoid the top end of any loading manual. It isn't necessary, doesn't give performance, and only stresses the rifle and brass.


I have .45 ACP that has been fired with medium loads so many times I can't count. With straight walled pistol cases of moderate pressures, we shoot them until they crack. Very distinct sound when a cracked case hits concrete or the ground. I won't hesitate to shoot straight walled pistol stuff until the primer falls out when seating or the case cracks when fired.

Centerfire Rifle is another matter. If you shoot it at moderate velocities from a bolt rifle of good quality and chamber, you will shoot it fifteen plus times without a problem. I throw out such brass when the primer seats way too easily. What is 'too easily'? No resistance when seating the primer and the primer falls out of the case if the case is tapped on the rim.

Gas guns don't get the same case life. I refuse to shoot any brass of any type out of my M-14 if it had been shot more than three times. 5.56 I have gotten five or six loads out of then I throw it away out of fear even if it seats primers just fine and shows no signs of headspace separation. I don't trust gas guns worth a damn when it comes to brass wear. Again, I would rather retain my rifles, ten fingers and two eyes, than try to get another load out of a piece of Lake City brass worth about two cents. Oh yes, don't buy any 'surplus' 5.56 brass as most of it was fired out of M-249's. Machineguns will stretch brass due to sloppy headspace. If you decide to save a couple of cents per hundred by buying once fired GI brass, invest in stuck case extractors and do wear ballistic eye protection when shooting. Hollis and I have been there -- it ain't worth it. Buy brand new brass for the rifle.

I check cases for powder loads two ways. First, I use a powder that is ideal for the cartridge and second, I use a load where if one double charges, the powder spills out of the case -- a common occurrance with progressive presses. I also visually check rifle cases after charging to ensure a good case fill -- even when I use a progressive.

If you intend on buying a progressive press, you best intend on using ball powder for pistol and rifle or you will have problems. Winchester makes fine ball powders for pistol and rifle. Excellent powder for pistols -- poor powder for High Power rifle. Great powder for bench rest rifle. Go figure!

Hollis can start out on equipment issues. I don't care what company makes the thing as long as it works. I trust Redding with total confidence. I trust Hornady more than Dillon. RCBS and Lyman are about the same -- I won't buy either. I do buy some Lee gear but I also choose carefully with Lee. Lee makes some awesome loading gear at real cheap prices. They also make awesomely poor gear at cheap prices.

Decisions, decisions, decisions.

Research things, elimiate money as an issue, and trust yoursefl when making such decisions. You will find the money issue works out just as you envisioned and you get gear you trust.

Gene

[HOLLiS]

Gene, I with you on company, if it works that is what matters. I think sometimes it is a combination of tool and reloader, how they mate together.

Even though I have not had similar problems with you, I am all ears.......... I believe it may because I have been lucky and I really need to re-evaluate what I am doing. I appreciate your input.

I am a more casual shooter that most, I like to think of it as pactical. My serious reloading days are passe'.

TR gave some really great advice on case prep. I have a bunch of case prep tools, definiately a MUST for "highly' Accurate loads.

Again, I think what is important is Knowledge and biggest knowledge of all, is knowing yourself, what works and what does not work. Equipment is secondary.

on max loads I am 100% with you............ men needing a sense of needing to be well hung, will go max plus............ expensive, hard on the gun, hard on the person, and will make a person a terrible shot in no time.

[Peregrino]

Jeez - Between Gene and Hollis there isn't much to add. Just stick with the same mindset you would use for (professional) calc & placement of demo and you can't go wrong. (I've got all my fingers/eyes too!) The comment about economies when reloading plinking ammo is absolutely true. Time is money - or rather time has value. Case lots (if somebody else picks up the S&H) are well worth it. My .02 - Peregrino

[HOLLiS]

Peregrino, yes... also a consideration to reloading, is that on a long boring winter day, it is something to do. Go to town see a movie, have dinner... Reloading gets really cheap in comparison. There are astetic rewards too. I do both I buy cheap surplus and reload. If anything it gives a person options.

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by HOLLiS

I have a bunch of case prep tools, definiately a MUST for "highly' Accurate loads.

Hollis:

I have gotten by without much case prep. I shoot Lake City at short ranges so I don't have to mess with the brass. For long range shooting I just buy Winchester or Lapua. The Winchester brass I will trim if needed then weigh out lots for long range, size and load. Lapua I check a few for length, visually inspect, and then size and load.

I think the loading dies, chamber, and barrel are more critical to an accurate round than neck turning or reaming of a primer pocket.

Just my experience based on testing things over the years.

Gene

[The Reaper]

Gene:

Do you shoot benchrest or 1000 yard matches?

TR

[Sten]

Gentlemen-

Thank you for this wealth of information!

TJ

[HOLLiS]

Gene,

When I did 1000 M bench rest shooting, case prep was about 80 -90% of the work along with sorting bullets. One thing I found out, I was not ment to be that type of shooter. All the prep work may have been case quality back then was not what it is today. Also today we have much more choices on cases. At 1000M a tiny bit becomes noticable.

I think the thins you mention are about 99% of the battle, case prep maybe the other 1%. From factory loads to hand loads the proper bullet seating depths, consisitant charges, Loads design specifically for the fire arm really adds up to a very accurate load.

My thoughs on accuracy is based on what is needed. How accurate does the load needs to be. For example in high competative 1000M bench shooting requires the most accurate of loads. Plinking the least accurate. I bought some 308 military portugese ammo. groupd at 100M, was all over the place, 6 inch groups. The rifle was a Ruger MKII with a bull barrel w/nothing done special. On hand loads for any of my 308, the ruger shot clover leafs at 100M. The Military surplus was a cheap source for just plinking, dragging out the 1919 and wasting a lot of ammo.

With my 338 Win Mag, as long as I can constantly hit milk jugs at 600M I am satisfied. Which for handloads are no efford to do.

Probably for the new reloader some equipment can wait until they figure out where they are going with reloading. I still do it and recommend re-reading those reloading books within a reasonable period of time. Especially if one had not reloaded in while or just getting started.

Other thing I like to do is watch other reloaders. While something may work very well for them, It may not for me, such as certain types of presses. Over time I have bought a few "lures" (designed to catch the reloaders money and not provide anything if much) Dillon has a case feed for the 550B, I am thinking is it worth it, a lure, or ? My other thought for me reloading is something to do, I enjoy doing and helps passes time during the long dark wet winters in Oregon. I am not a TV person.

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Gene: Do you shoot benchrest or 1000 yard matches?
TR

TR:

Roger. In fact I picked up my High Master in Long Range from some 1000 yard shoots a couple of years ago and maintain this classification today. Was shooting a 6.5/06 at the time. Pre-64 Model 70 Match Rifle. Very good cartridge for that type of thing. Hard on barrels though. I used some Winchester .25/06 brass that I opened up and fire formed for that rifle. Didn't even weigh that stuff. Visual inspection, trimmed to length, carefully loaded the ammo and shot the brass. I may have uniformed the primer pockets using a power driver and a reamer but can't remember. The rifle was exceptionally well made and I was very careful when loading the ammo. Today I shoot a Palma rifle in .308 or my Tubb in 6XC at 1000.

If I were shooting Bench Rest -- I would work the brass like Hollis. Bench Rest and High Power have a different set of standards for winning. Sure, you want to be as precise as possible in both but with High Power your standards are set by target size and not group size. Also, High Power requires a whole bunch of ammo for a day and you don't have time to reload the same ten or twenty pieces of brass between relays.

If I were shooting Lake City at those ranges, you better believe I would trim, turn, and work the primer pockets. I have done this with too many pieces of Lake City brass to remember and although the results were apparent, better results came from using high quality commercial brass without the hassles of turning, and reaming.

Why did I basically stop messing with the brass? Because when using good components I never saw a difference. So I asked a couple of the guys who I shoot with and who have been or are now on the Palma Team what they do. Needless to say, I do what they are doing now. So I stopped messing with all the turning and reaming and focused on shooting. Some do all the other things mentioned and they too are top notch shooters. They swear by brass work and others don't.

Here is something I will do though. If I am in the zone and a round doesn't go to call, I segregate that piece of brass for further inspection. It it goes way out of call, I throw it away. Survival of the fittest in brass terms. At times you can do everything imaginable with a piece of brass and it won't hold so get rid of it without further question.

If one wants to learn every single thing one can do to a piece of brass, read the Zediker book called "Handloading for Competition". I picked up a few things from this guy that make a whole bunch of sense. Other things I take with a grain of salt.

Gene

[The Reaper]

Gene:

Thanks!

I have BRed an AMU 1000 yard gun, and to get the full potential you had to work the brass.

I tried the Federal Premium and it just would not shoot.

I discovered that bullet shape and weight for the twist are critical, as is the bullet seating depth off of the lands. When I started preparing the brass properly, it got even better.

Turns out that once I found out what the rifle liked and followed all of the steps, if shot like a house on fire. If you get the right load for a particular rifle, and make it consistently, your shooting becomes the weakest link. All of my precision rifles are better shooters than I am.

TR

[HOLLiS]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

your shooting becomes the weakest link. All of my precision rifles are better shooters than I am.

TR

Yes, the real challenge is between the ears. One reason women do real well. 1000M shooting excluding all the work to make a cartridge is mostly mental. Sort of, "Zin and the art of shooting". A lot of guys instinctly will try to muscle trough something.

As for rifles, same here.........


TR.. something commercial loads can not do, make a round specific for your rifle.

[HOLLiS]

On reloading, I will lightly seat a bullet, place it in the action, and close the action. If it will not close, I will seat it just a bit more, and repeat the process.

What I am doing is developing a dummy cartridge for bullet seating to account for ZERO free bore.

Once I have it a very slight resistence on closing the action w/o a case, I have what I need. One can buy stuff that will do the same, but why?

I keep the dummy cartridges to use as a gauge when I am setting the bullet seater die.

edited to add....... If you are using a box magazine, it may not allow for a cartridge with the bullet set for Zero free bore.. the magazine sets the lenght. A way around that is to single feed the round. Some actions will require the case to be stripped from the mag well, that could create a problem.

[The Reaper]

Hollis:

Roger all. You can make loads for your unique rifle that are tailored specifically for your chamber, bore, twist, etc.

The first time I loaded precision rifle, I was all worried about the best match primer and weighing the powder charges of the perfect powder to the nearest tenth of a grain. I had been unable to get close to a MOA with the rifle and was getting pretty pissed. I just could not get it to shoot, no matter how closely I weighed the powder.

A buddy who was a benchrest guy advised me to BR prep the cases, to measure the bullet seating depth of the chamber and try seating the bullet at various distances off of the rifling, .00, .05, .10, .15, .20, .25. Frankly, at the time, it looked like BS to me, but since he had the Sinclair Comparator and the other gear, so I did it.

Took my newly prepped and segregated brass, loaded it up and stored in batches by seating depth in the big ammo box. I took it out to the range, fouled it, and started shooting.

The .00 group was under an inch at 100. Not good, but better than I had been getting. .05 went under .75". Nice. .10 was under .5", better yet. .15 put five rounds of 220 gr. Match Kings into one ragged hole, just over .25". I was a believer. At .20, it opened back up to about .35" and at .25, it was up to .50" again.

Now, it turns out that the gunsmith had chambered it as a single shot for the 240 grainers, and with the rounds seated the way they had to be to shoot tight, I could get one round in the mag and one in the chamber, but that rifle turned out to be a shooting machine. The only mistake the 'smith made was assuming that I knew what I was doing. He had done his part.

Long and short of it is attention to detail, and if you are having no success, listen to someone who knows what they are doing.

Come to think of it, that is the answer to a lot of problems in life.

TR

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by The Reaper

Gene: I have BRed an AMU 1000 yard gun, and to get the full potential you had to work the brass. I tried the Federal Premium and it just would not shoot. I discovered that bullet shape and weight for the twist are critical, as is the bullet seating depth off of the lands. When I started preparing the brass properly, it got even better. Turns out that once I found out what the rifle liked and followed all of the steps, if shot like a house on fire. If you get the right load for a particular rifle, and make it consistently, your shooting becomes the weakest link. All of my precision rifles are better shooters than I am. TR

TR:

Sounds like the AMU set you up with a 300 Magnum. If so -- and I am not sure that is what they gave you -- you have your hands full. Belted magnum brass is not the most consistent in the world and a fellow really must work that brass to get it to be consistent.

Something I have read from guys who make bullets and I believe in is that bullet length is more important than weight for accuracy. I used to be extremely anal about the weights of the cores I would use to swage jacketed match grade bullets. +- .1 grain was a standard I used for .30 caliber. I have slacked off on that to +- 1 grain with .30 caliber bullets and have not seen a bit of difference in accuracy. Learned that bullet length is more critical than weight. You see, I can swage out bullets of different lengths with the same weight and so I tested some of these bullets and low and behold -- the length was the difference to a point. Then you deal with balance and points of pressure issues. Fortunately for all of us, there are enough high quality bullets available in any caliber to make swaging nothing more than interesting and perhaps educational.

Bullet shape plays its role. I messed with the VLD designs and made VLDs of various shapes. Some were pretty radical in tip design. Never found them any more accurate than standard ogives and the differences in elevation were so minimal I wonder why anyone calls them 'Very Low Drag'. The bearing surface of the bullet is extremely important due to the mechanical advantage that must be obtained in the rifling. A bearing surface must be at least the bore diameter in length but it loses its advantage at two times the bore diameter in length. Normally the longer and heavier bullets have more length to play with in terms of ogive style, bearing surface, and tail, so it is easier to get one of them to shoot well than a shorter bullet -- provided you twist the rifling sufficiently for stability.

I have messed around with cartridge lengths in terms of bullets off, in, or on the rifling and like you I perfer off the rifling or just touching. Much depends on the type of shooting one will do but I don't particularly like hard seating into the rifling unless someone gave me a bunch of VLDs where hard seating is almost required for performance.

You know, I haven't had a High Power rifle design be able to compete against a rifle designed for Bench Rest and vice versa. Two different animals in terms of stock design I believe.

I wouldn't short change myself in terms of man verses rifle. I firmly believe man is far more consistently accurate than any rifle and ammo made. Could well be your marksmanship is superior to your rifle and ammo.

Enough for tonight. Can't give out all the secrets!

Gene