Rise of the Warrior Cop

[Pete]

Originally Posted by Streck-Fu

...That is evidence that the problem is more systemic than being a small percentage of yahoo low hanging fruit individually abusing their authority.

There is this story - which would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

LAPD officers tampered with in-car recording equipment, records show

http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-l...#ixzz2z8ZUaLZ9

"An inspection by LAPD investigators found about half of the estimated 80 cars in one South L.A. patrol division were missing antennas......"

And before you say it was thugs in the hood who did it...


"...Since the new protocols went into place, only one antenna has been found missing, Smith said..."

[Streck-Fu]

The "terrorized family" was running a drug house with a sophisticated surveillance system.

Was drug evidence found in the house? At least enough to confirm more than recreational use?

[miclo18d]

Originally Posted by TacOfficer

I finally got around to watching the Iowa video.

First off, the police were wearing what looked like Tru-spec green uniforms and clearly marked police vests, not ACUs or camouflage Ninja pajamas. Every yahoo with a credit card and dial-up connection can order those....
Snip

First off I apologize if I shot out any ad hominem attacks. They were an attempt at sarcasm which doesn't always translate between my brain and finger tips. Please forgive me if you took any offense.

However I think that you are missing the Forrest through the trees here.

How about the fact that you are on a Special Forces website, with a screen name of TacOfficer with a picture of a "Secret Squirrel". Do you not find these things as references to SWAT tactics and the fact that militarization of the police force IS in fact happening. Not sure if you know where the term "Secret Squirrel" comes from? Well back in the 80's that's what us Rangers used to call Delta Force guys because we weren't allowed to mention "The Unit" by name. Pretty ironic, eh?

The fact that you missed my references to "Ninjas" was pretty interesting as you brought up that they were wearing Tru-Spec pants as opposed to Military uniforms or ninja suits. "Ninja", is also a reference to special operations, because we sneak around in the dark. It doesn't matter what your/other's SWAT team wears, BDU, ACU, MultiCam...etc. They are wearing them in the style of the military. Why? Do you have a reason to camouflage yourselves getting out of your squad cars? When was the last time you went to the woods? If that office bought their SWAT officers Tru-Spec pants, I applaud the purchase officer for saving us a few tax dollars! You again missed the point, that was, why do you need a SWAT raid to catch a couple of low-life, penny-ante, drug dealers. Did this "hardcore crew" have a history of shooting at police? I bet not. As you said yourself, the only thing he was missing was the Lord's Prayer.

Do you mean to tell me that the only way you can arrest or search a premises is to conduct a SWAT raid? Do you not gather intelligence on your criminals? Could you not catch them when out and about, follow them? Search the home when no one is there? If the quantity of drugs in that house was so small that they could flush it down the toilet, I'm afraid you are wasting tax dollars. You are going after low-hanging fruit. That's lazy in my book. Intent to sell, Distribution, delivery. WOW! How about 40 pounds of marijuana seized. That would be much more impressive than we got a guy with an ounce of weed as he tried to flush it down the toilet, let's nail him for "delivery". How about turning him. Create a source. Create intelligence for your area and go after the big boys, building a case. Do you think we just went house to house looking for Talibs in Afghanistan? Wrong. We had to build cases, with multiple sources before we could "raid" the house. Then had to get our plan approved with other courses of action instead of a raid. I wasn't putting all that time in to catch "Muhammad-the-pissant-rifleman". That's the REAL military reality. Not this wannabe stuff that is turning our citizenry against our police. If you don't see THAT, it may be too late.

Special Operations, specifically Special Forces lives by the creed of "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar". A carrot and stick mentality. You try the honey (or carrot) before you try the vinegar (the stick). You don't alienate the populace that way. You convince the populace you are on their side (cops and citizens against the criminals) NOT the us against them (cops/thin blue line against the citizens that some of whom happen to be criminals but everyone else is "helping them")

[Streck-Fu]

Do you not gather intelligence on your criminals?

This is a frequent issue in current law enforcement with regards to the deployment of SWAT teams. Too often, the informants are themselves drug dealers that are offered lighter sentences for information. Eager to please, too often they make shit up or give bad information. The police department do little to no verification before sending in SWAT....

But then, when the police investigation consists of an officer claiming to smell chemicals consistent with a meth lab, you get incidents like the death of Eugene Mallory.....LINK...Note to police, if you are going to claim he pointed a gun at you in the hallway, don;t shoot him in bed and leave his .22 handgun on the night stand....

How about turning him. Create a source. Create intelligence for your area and go after the big boys, building a case.

See above....low hanging fruit most often produces low hanging fruit....

NOT the us against them (cops/thin blue line against the citizens that some of whom happen to be criminals but everyone else is "helping them")

Spot on.

[miclo18d]

Originally Posted by Streck-Fu

This is a frequent issue in current law enforcement with regards to the deployment of SWAT teams. Too often, the informants are themselves drug dealers that are offered lighter sentences for information. Eager to please, too often they make shit up or give bad information. The police department do little to no verification before sending in SWAT....

But then, when the police investigation consists of an officer claiming to smell chemicals consistent with a meth lab, you get incidents like the death of Eugene Mallory.....LINK...Note to police, if you are going to claim he pointed a gun at you in the hallway, don;t shoot him in bed and leave his .22 handgun on the night stand....



See above....low hanging fruit most often produces low hanging fruit....






Spot on.

That's my point strek, most sources are low hanging fruit. They are the same to bad guys too. That's what makes them good sources, however, good sources aren't born, they are made. They have to be developed. They have to be taught. They have to be tested and backed up with a second or third source. A source is enough to get a warrant, back that up with photos of sales with an estimate of how much they are supplying, get a wire and back it with what they are talking about and bam! You have a case. You use your CI to get places you can't go. This is so basic it hurts to have to write it.

[koz]

A good example of over use of force. Guy commits armed robbery 13 yrs ago (with a BB gun). Clerical error doesn't put in him jail (they "forgot"). He gets married, gets a job, has 3 kids, does volunteer work, coaches a little league football team. No other arrests, run-ins the the law, (he did get two speeding tickets). He had a DL with his name & address, he paid his income taxes - basically a model citizen.

Clerk realizes they screwed up - send a SWAT team take him in. If he was going to run - he had 13 years to do so. Why send "oakley"-booted SWAT cops to take him in? I'm surprised they didn't use the MRAP to ram his front door. I'm sure they were all roided up with big plans to put a notch on the buttstock.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014...get-about-him/

Before someone says - "they were just doing their job" - wonder if any cop said "this is pretty ridiculous"

Some of my best friends are cops. I shoot regularly with the SWAT team and snipers (the snipers use the land I have access to practice on longer ranges).

[PSM]

Originally Posted by miclo 18d

Do you not gather intelligence on your criminals? Could you not catch them when out and about, follow them? Search the home when no one is there?

I remember listening to LAPD, back in the early '80s, tracking suspects. They used a Bell 47 up high, parallel units, a unit in front of the suspect, and two following that would rotate. The air unit would advise as to the condition of the upcomming traffic light so that the trailing units could either tighten up or fall back a bit. They would tail these guys all fricking day until they returned to the crib. Then nobody sat on them. By the time the LAPD returned with the warrant, the guys were gone. Always! (At least while I was listening.) What a waste of taxpayer money.

Pat

[Pericles]

Originally Posted by miclo18d

That's my point strek, most sources are low hanging fruit. They are the same to bad guys too. That's what makes them good sources, however, good sources aren't born, they are made. They have to be developed. They have to be taught. They have to be tested and backed up with a second or third source. A source is enough to get a warrant, back that up with photos of sales with an estimate of how much they are supplying, get a wire and back it with what they are talking about and bam! You have a case. You use your CI to get places you can't go. This is so basic it hurts to have to write it.

That sounds too much like work.

[badshot]

Originally Posted by koz

Clerk realizes they screwed up - send a SWAT team take him in. If he was going to run - he had 13 years to do so. Why send "oakley"-booted SWAT cops to take him in? I'm surprised they didn't use the MRAP to ram his front door. I'm sure they were all roided up with big plans to put a notch on the buttstock.

Yes, whatever happened to the plain clothes officers that 'blend in' to an area bumping into someone coming out of a store, getting out of a car, or putting the garbage out. It also works with 'known' dangerous guys - use a blackjack instead of a bump.

It's cheaper and safer too.

[MR2]

The United States of SWAT?

And comments too...

[TacOfficer]

Originally Posted by badshot

Yes, whatever happened to the plain clothes officers that 'blend in' to an area bumping into someone coming out of a store, getting out of a car, or putting the garbage out. It also works with 'known' dangerous guys - use a blackjack instead of a bump.

It's cheaper and safer too.

Who says we don't.
There might be use of force issues with the blackjack, but we also have used other ploys for arrest. What criminals worry and cry the loudest about are search warrants ("Dats bogus bro!"). I believe that's one reason why there is such a proliferation of complaints and videos on the net.

The videos I see on the net are when SWAT conducts the entry. Most SWs don't involve SWAT. The ones that do especially appear dramatic when persons that are not the target are present. They are there either by circumstance or coincidence, and always good for a "Oh Lordy!"

To address the Secret Squirrel logo: The Secret Squirrel moniker was given by the old timers in uniform because we are in plain clothes and tend to keep our investigations confidential, below the radar. The young guys, we call "Hair Gels" probably haven't even see the cartoon.

I didn't know SF applied it to Delta. That's probably the only thing I have in common with them, maybe I use the same tooth paste.

[cbtengr]

Originally Posted by MR2

The United States of SWAT?

And comments too...

Interesting read, our elected officials should have to read this. Over 50,000 raids per year, to include cock fighting, raw milk and college aid fraud. Does the US Dept. of Education or the US Fish and Wildlife Service really need a swat team?

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by koz

A good example of over use of force. Guy commits armed robbery 13 yrs ago (with a BB gun). Clerical error doesn't put in him jail (they "forgot"). He gets married, gets a job, has 3 kids, does volunteer work, coaches a little league football team. No other arrests, run-ins the the law, (he did get two speeding tickets). He had a DL with his name & address, he paid his income taxes - basically a model citizen.

Clerk realizes they screwed up - send a SWAT team take him in. If he was going to run - he had 13 years to do so. Why send "oakley"-booted SWAT cops to take him in? I'm surprised they didn't use the MRAP to ram his front door. I'm sure they were all roided up with big plans to put a notch on the buttstock.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014...get-about-him/

Before someone says - "they were just doing their job" - wonder if any cop said "this is pretty ridiculous"

Some of my best friends are cops. I shoot regularly with the SWAT team and snipers (the snipers use the land I have access to practice on longer ranges).

You mean like sending 23 heavily armed SEALS, a half a billion dollars in classified aircraft and $500,000,000 in man hours to kill one 50 year old guy and his two 50 year old bodyguards? I guess its all relative.....

[akv]

Cops have tough jobs, I respect their service to society. I believe the vast majority are decent folk who care. I think we often become what we surround ourselves with. I believe it is very easy for police constantly exposed to the uglier aspects of society, to relate and interact only with other cops, then fall into us vs. them mindset, and get jaded and project this cynicism onto the law abiding citizens as well. A poor analogy might be the way a stripper or prostitute sees men.

From the law abiding citizens perspective the majority of experiences we have with police aren't positive either, it's at best a speeding ticket, or a very bad day. In addition especially in tough economic times we are all frustrated with the government, and police are often the city or state employees we interact with on a face to face basis. There is something broken in our society when it comes to violence, the gun's are just tools, I don't know why we have so many active shooter incidents.

I think a great deal of gun and general violence is the result of illegal drugs. Whether it was the tommy guns of Al Capone during prohibition or drug dealers with AK's now. I don't want to see officers trying to arrest them with .38 revolvers. At the same time some of the SWAT stuff and these incidents we hear about seem overkill and unnecessary.

Finally, I think the Grossman Wolf/Sheepdog analogy should be taken with a grain of salt. It's interesting but divisive, and can lead to contempt between the "sheepdogs" and the "sheep". Even if you like the analogy, contempt is when relationships end, and those who develop contempt for the "sheep" are one step closer to being "wolves". He is an eloquent businessman, he knows his audience. I haven't read of him ever being in combat himself, yet a ton of military and LE with combat /gunfight experience take him as gospel?

My $.02, the confluence of a lack of positive community interaction and this macho "sheepdog" culture contribute to instances of excessive force or unnecessary SWAT team deployments and all sorts of other jaded bad things for officers.

[badshot]

Originally Posted by TacOfficer

There might be use of force issues with the blackjack

Understand some places don't allow them any more. For those with violent histories it 'should' be appropriate.

Have to say my limited experience with Chicago PD was not bad...

Was riding an Amtrak with a big friend - guy actually caught me once (one foot) when I pushed off a cliff above him so he wouldn't fall with me, he saved me lots of pain - thanks Gary. Anyway, he got too drunk and got kicked off the train in Chicago and thought the Police were Firemen (rain coat color). He squared off with them but soon realized they weren't fireman. Long story short, he spent the night in jail and was let go without them beating the crap out of him.

...won't comment on the Mayor.