Jesus at The Mall

[ruth nasrullah]

Originally Posted by Pete

Ruth;

Only in the west are you allowed to hold the views that you do. Go to any Muslim country under Sharia law and publicly state that you are going to pick and choose what to believe in the Quran. You will soon be hit with the views that we are telling you about.

Islam needs its own reformation but it will be slow in coming because the Quran will not be allowed to be changed. The views that it contains will not be changed and any who try and change it will not be considered true Muslims.

Until that time comes dar al Islam will continue to try and expand.

Turkey was a secular Islamic Nation for decades. Have you looked into it's political situation over the past few years? Would you consider it stable politically or sliding more into the grip of the religious leaders? Is the Military still the honest broker when it comes to maintaining the staus quo? What do you think will happen to Turkey in the next five years or so?

Sir, I'm not sure if I understand you regarding the Qur'an. There are things in the Qur'an that are clear (example: how to wash before prayer) and things that are unclear, perhaps because they are allegorical or perhaps because God chose to leave them incompletely explained for purposes known only to Him. Again, I am unable and unwilling to delve too deeply into the topic of tafseer or Qur'anic exegesis, but I do know that scholarly interpretation of the Qur'an is not monolithic.

To me, it is a mainstream Islamic viewpoint to believe that the Qur'an is the revealed word of God that has remained and will remain intact for all time, but whose interpretations may differ. Yet it seems that each time I refer to that type of thinking here I receive harsh disagreement from site members. You say that Islam needs "reformation," and although I think that means different things to each of us, when I read that I couldn't help but think - if "reformation" is what is needed, how is it helpful to otherize western Muslims? If, as an example, our efforts to gain a foothold in the political system or to ask for equal treatment are seen as "stealth jihad" or "creeping sharia," how will that "reformation" ever take place? How will our voices be heard if we are continually accused of "taqiyya"?

[ruth nasrullah]

Originally Posted by Pete

Tawheed or Tawhid and other terms.

Yes, most are or, if not, would look it up. We don't like to use wikie as a source but sometimes it's good for a fast definition and gives some information for looking in different areas for more data.

I asked you earlier about abrogation and you never addressed the issue. The Quran was not all written at the same time nor was it written in the same place.

The Christian Bible is written in two parts, the Old (Jewish) eye for an eye section and the New (Time of Jesus) section. Ruth, I am no expert in anything religious and many could rip me apart but the Bible is abrogation in a sense. By believing in Jesus the New Abrogates the Old.

The Quran transitions from Mecca to Al-madinah and into the Hijrah. The abrogation of the Quran moves from peace to warfare. Abrogation sets war over peace in the Quran.

Do you believe in Abrogation as it applies to the Quran?

I have spent a couple hours today on this site, so abrogation will have to be deferred for now.

As for the Arabic terms, please feel free to ask me for clarifications if Wiki doesn't seem to agree with what I'm saying <smile>.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by ruth nasrullah

....., when I read that I couldn't help but think - if "reformation" is what is needed, how is it helpful to otherize western Muslims? If, as an example, our efforts to gain a foothold in the political system or to ask for equal treatment are seen as "stealth jihad" or "creeping sharia," how will that "reformation" ever take place? How will our voices be heard if we are continually accused of "taqiyya"?

Reformation must come from within Islam. But that can not happen because the Quran is perfect and can not be changed.

Interesting that you would use "taqiyya" in that way. One who believes as you may not be using "taqiyya". But "taqiyya" is an approved tactic of Islam. So the big question for an Infidel is "Is this Muslim practicing Taqiyya or not? " So maybe a first step in Islam could be to denounce the use of Taqiyya? Oh, wait, it's use is approved in the Quran. See how tangled all this gets.

How are you as a Muslim not afforded the same rights as Christians in this country? Could it be your demand for equal rights could be a demand for special rights? If a company has a dress code and your dress violates it should you sue on religious grounds? They will not hire you because of the way you dress - not because of your religion. If you are hired as a taxi driver do you have a right to refuse service to a customer who has a dog. How about someone who has a few bottles of booze? If you are hired as a check out person in a food store do you have a right to refuse to handle pork products?

Are Christains given equal rights as Muslims in countries under Sharia law?

Do you as a woman have more rights here than in a Muslim Country under Sharia law. Can you go shopping without a male family member? Granted, in some Muslim countries you can, in others you would be beaten.

What would happen to you, if when living in Texas, you convert to Christianity? What if you convert in Saudi Arabia?

[Green Light]

Originally Posted by ruth nasrullah

A quick response to the idea that Islam was revealed by a prophet - although we believe that Prophet Muhammad's sunnah is the one preserved in the most detail and carrying the greatest authority, we believe that the basic message of Islam - there is only one God; worship Him - was brought by all prophets, beginning with Adam and ending with Prophet Muhammad.

If that is true, then each prophet must agree with the others. There cannot be anything that one prophet says (prophetically) that another says is not true.

Everything goes all the way back to creation. Abraham wrote of the grand council in heaven. That we were all there. Elohim offered a plan that would allow us to go to the earth, receive bodies, learn from our experiences, and return. Some would fail, some would not. Lucifer offered a plan that would cause everyone to return. No one would be lost. But it would be at the expense of free will. The war in heaven was fought over this. Lucifer and his followers were cast out, never to receive bodies. Muhammed taught that everyone would either accept "his plan" or be killed. Convert or die, taking away free will, just as Lucifer wanted. The Prophet Abraham wrote of this war. We both believe Abraham was a prophet of God, that God revealed these things to him. But Mohammed's revelation required that he take away that freedom of choice. They can't both be prophets. They can't receive contradictory revelation from the same Being.

You mention Adam. In the creation story, all animals and creeping things were placed on the earth from the lowest creation to the grandest. That greatest creation was not Adam (which means "human") but was Eve - she, woman, was the greatest creation. Does this sound like the way that women are treated in Islam? No. Quite the opposite. She was the "mother of all living." She figured out the puzzle they were given: they were commanded to be fruitful and multiply and fill (replenish is actually a bad translation) the earth. But they were in a state that didn't allow them to do this - they had to be mortal. When Lucifer offered them the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, he refused. Eve realized that for there to be children and for them to have knowledge (knowing good from evil by experiencing both), she would have to eat the fruit. Then when Eve explained it to Adam, he knew that it was the way things had to be. Eve was smarter than Adam. She figured out the riddle. Yes, they became mortal, but they would have children who would have the opportunity to choose for themselves.

The prophets of the Old Testament were given revelation to prepare for the coming of Messiah. Everything in it testifies of Him. Yes, there are those who believe He hasn't come yet. Everything down to the way animals were sacrificed: they had to be without blemish, the finest of the flock. No bones could be broken. This was in the similitude of the final sacrifice. When he was ritually cleansed in the Jordan River, the Holy Ghost came upon Him and from the heavens came the voice saying "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased." Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. We both say that he was a prophet. Was he also a ventriloquist? We're talking three deities here. If you say he was a prophet, was he lying? If so he wasn't a prophet, then Mohammed was lying.

If Islam is true, being a revealed religion, then everything must be true or everything is a lie. There is no in-between. There can be no "moderate" road. Those who murder people like me, my wife, and my children because we have made the decision to do otherwise are not cast out. They are at best tolerated and at worst revered as heroes.

The truth is not like philosophy. You can't say that the sun will come up on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays except when they're even days of the month. And when it doesn't happen that way say "well, that's just what I believe." That won't work.

If you believe that I should have my head cut off because I don't believe that Mohammed was a prophet, fine. As long as you don't get out your knife, we'll get along OK. But if you believe that he was who and what he claimed to be, then you'd better be ready to accept the whole bucket.

[ruth nasrullah]

Originally Posted by Pete

Tawheed or Tawhid and other terms.

Yes, most are or, if not, would look it up. We don't like to use wikie as a source but sometimes it's good for a fast definition and gives some information for looking in different areas for more data.

I asked you earlier about abrogation and you never addressed the issue. The Quran was not all written at the same time nor was it written in the same place.

The Christian Bible is written in two parts, the Old (Jewish) eye for an eye section and the New (Time of Jesus) section. Ruth, I am no expert in anything religious and many could rip me apart but the Bible is abrogation in a sense. By believing in Jesus the New Abrogates the Old.

The Quran transitions from Mecca to Al-madinah and into the Hijrah. The abrogation of the Quran moves from peace to warfare. Abrogation sets war over peace in the Quran.

Do you believe in Abrogation as it applies to the Quran?

I only know a little bit about abrogation in the Qur'an and I know very, very little about the Bible. I suspect that your comment overemphasizes abrogation as a characteristic of the Qur'an. I am aware that the concept has been seized on by critics of Islam as a tool in invalidating the Qur'an, much as the concept of taqiyya has been used to discredit Muslims. That said...

Your comment that Madinan verses abrogate Meccan verses isn't entirely accurate - or at least describes the differences simplistically. Studying seerah helps to understand why Madinan verses discuss law and Meccan verses discuss tawheed and the stories of the prophets. Unfortunately right now I can't find my notes from a class I recently took on the Qur'an, so I won't risk speaking in error by expanding further on the differences. Suffice it to say that abrogations are few, and the difference in content between Madinan and Meccan verses are clarified by study of the history of the Qur'ans revelation. Context is key.

It is an important point to note that the Qur'an was revealed rather than written. I assume you don't share that belief, but if you look at it from that standpoint it may make more sense - or maybe that's just my "bias" speaking.

[ruth nasrullah]

Originally Posted by Pete

Reformation must come from within Islam. But that can not happen because the Quran is perfect and can not be changed.

Interesting that you would use "taqiyya" in that way. One who believes as you may not be using "taqiyya". But "taqiyya" is an approved tactic of Islam. So the big question for an Infidel is "Is this Muslim practicing Taqiyya or not? " So maybe a first step in Islam could be to denounce the use of Taqiyya? Oh, wait, it's use is approved in the Quran. See how tangled all this gets.

How are you as a Muslim not afforded the same rights as Christians in this country? Could it be your demand for equal rights could be a demand for special rights? If a company has a dress code and your dress violates it should you sue on religious grounds? They will not hire you because of the way you dress - not because of your religion. If you are hired as a taxi driver do you have a right to refuse service to a customer who has a dog. How about someone who has a few bottles of booze? If you are hired as a check out person in a food store do you have a right to refuse to handle pork products?

Are Christains given equal rights as Muslims in countries under Sharia law?

Do you as a woman have more rights here than in a Muslim Country under Sharia law. Can you go shopping without a male family member? Granted, in some Muslim countries you can, in others you would be beaten.

What would happen to you, if when living in Texas, you convert to Christianity? What if you convert in Saudi Arabia?

Sir, I will, God willing, respond in full to these questions later today, but a quick response to your musings on taqiyya - I imagine that the only way to decide if someone is lying is to judge their character and judge their motivation to lie.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by ruth nasrullah

...........- I imagine that the only way to decide if someone is lying is to judge their character and judge their motivation to lie.

Ruth, read the responses that you have made in this thread. You were asked direct questions and most you danced around and claimed not to have enough knowledge to answer.

The few that you kinda' sorta' answered were - well, let us just say not in agreement with the leaders of Islam.

Be glad you live in a country that allows you to practice your religion the way you wish.

Some light reading for you

http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or...ation-in-islam

"Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam"

"...Abrogation in Classical Scholarship

Muslim scholars in the classical period agreed about the principle of abrogation in the Qur'an. In the eleventh century, Abu Muhammad ‘Ali bin Ahmad bin Sa‘id Ibn Hazim (d. 1064), an Andalusian theologian, philosopher, historian, and jurist, examined the Qur'an chapter by chapter to show which verses supplanted other verses.[25]

Classical scholars also examined the pattern in which Muhammad engaged in abrogation during revelation because Qur'anic laws were brief and insufficient for the needs of the huge Muslim community.[26] Muhammad changed his rules according to the circumstances. Within the hadith, there are a number of examples. Muhammad, for example, revealed verse 2:187 regulating sex during Ramadan after ‘Umar Ibn al-Khattab questioned him.[27] Likewise, Muhammad abrogated another verse encouraging all believers to fight militarily for God (4:95) after he was challenged by a blind man who could not......."

http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war

"How Taqiyya Alters Islam's Rules of War
Defeating Jihadist Terrorism"

"......However, one of the few books devoted to the subject, At-Taqiyya fi'l-Islam (Dissimulation in Islam) makes it clear that taqiyya is not limited to Shi'a dissimulating in fear of persecution. Written by Sami Mukaram, a former Islamic studies professor at the American University of Beirut and author of some twenty-five books on Islam, the book clearly demonstrates the ubiquity and broad applicability of taqiyya:

Taqiyya is of fundamental importance in Islam. Practically every Islamic sect agrees to it and practices it … We can go so far as to say that the practice of taqiyya is mainstream in Islam, and that those few sects not practicing it diverge from the mainstream … Taqiyya is very prevalent in Islamic politics, especially in the modern era......."

[ruth nasrullah]

Originally Posted by Pete

Ruth, read the responses that you have made in this thread. You were asked direct questions and most you danced around and claimed not to have enough knowledge to answer.

The few that you kinda' sorta' answered were - well, let us just say not in agreement with the leaders of Islam.

Be glad you live in a country that allows you to practice your religion the way you wish.

Some light reading for you

http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or...ation-in-islam

"Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam"

"...Abrogation in Classical Scholarship

Muslim scholars in the classical period agreed about the principle of abrogation in the Qur'an. In the eleventh century, Abu Muhammad ‘Ali bin Ahmad bin Sa‘id Ibn Hazim (d. 1064), an Andalusian theologian, philosopher, historian, and jurist, examined the Qur'an chapter by chapter to show which verses supplanted other verses.[25]

Classical scholars also examined the pattern in which Muhammad engaged in abrogation during revelation because Qur'anic laws were brief and insufficient for the needs of the huge Muslim community.[26] Muhammad changed his rules according to the circumstances. Within the hadith, there are a number of examples. Muhammad, for example, revealed verse 2:187 regulating sex during Ramadan after ‘Umar Ibn al-Khattab questioned him.[27] Likewise, Muhammad abrogated another verse encouraging all believers to fight militarily for God (4:95) after he was challenged by a blind man who could not......."

http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war

"How Taqiyya Alters Islam's Rules of War
Defeating Jihadist Terrorism"

"......However, one of the few books devoted to the subject, At-Taqiyya fi'l-Islam (Dissimulation in Islam) makes it clear that taqiyya is not limited to Shi'a dissimulating in fear of persecution. Written by Sami Mukaram, a former Islamic studies professor at the American University of Beirut and author of some twenty-five books on Islam, the book clearly demonstrates the ubiquity and broad applicability of taqiyya:

Taqiyya is of fundamental importance in Islam. Practically every Islamic sect agrees to it and practices it … We can go so far as to say that the practice of taqiyya is mainstream in Islam, and that those few sects not practicing it diverge from the mainstream … Taqiyya is very prevalent in Islamic politics, especially in the modern era......."

Well, I was asked for my personal opinion and I gave it. If I delved into a discussion of things I'm not knowledgeable about I would be taking us all down a path of deception. I've said before that I'm not knowledgeable to discuss many of these topics. I didn't come here to debate.

If your research tells you that lying and deception is a fundamental part of Islam, I don't know why you bother asking me questions. Closes the door to conversation before it begins.

[ruth nasrullah]

Originally Posted by ruth nasrullah

Well, I was asked for my personal opinion and I gave it. If I delved into a discussion of things I'm not knowledgeable about I would be taking us all down a path of deception. I've said before that I'm not knowledgeable to discuss many of these topics. I didn't come here to debate.

If your research tells you that lying and deception is a fundamental part of Islam, I don't know why you bother asking me questions. Closes the door to conversation before it begins.

Both sources for your response are meforum.org, a site with an agenda (as evidenced by their stated mission).

I suggest you read "War and Peace in the Life of the Prophet Muhammad" by Zakaria Bashier, or at least the first chapter.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by ruth nasrullah

.......If your research tells you that lying and deception is a fundamental part of Islam, I don't know why you bother asking me questions. Closes the door to conversation before it begins.

Your debate is not with me. It is with the Islamic Scholars who were quoted and sourced in the links provided.

I believe what they have to say. Do you?

[ruth nasrullah]

Originally Posted by Pete

Your debate is not with me. It is with the Islamic Scholars who were quoted and sourced in the links provided.

I believe what they have to say. Do you?

How can I answer that when you assert that the scholars themselves support lying and deception? There is no answer to the question: Are you lying?

[Pete]

Originally Posted by ruth nasrullah

How can I answer that when you assert that the scholars themselves support lying and deception? There is no answer to the question: Are you lying?

You have it backwards.

You claim to have no knowledge in the areas we are talking about. I have pointed you to articles that quote and scource Islamic Scholars and their views on the subjects.

I believe what the Islamic Scholars have to say on the issue. The question is "Do you believe them?"

[ruth nasrullah]

Originally Posted by Pete

You have it backwards.

You claim to have no knowledge in the areas we are talking about. I have pointed you to articles that quote and scource Islamic Scholars and their views on the subjects.

I believe what the Islamic Scholars have to say on the issue. The question is "Do you believe them?"

Right - and if I say I believe them, then logically I am lying. If I say I don't believe them, well again, I may be lying. Can't win.

I came here because you were discussing me, not to prove any points about Islam or Muslims. Dialogue is a good thing, but I have not found it here.

La ilaha il Allah - that is Islam.

[lonewolf726]

Originally Posted by ruth nasrullah

If, as an example, our efforts to gain a foothold in the political system or to ask for equal treatment are seen as "stealth jihad" or "creeping sharia," how will that "reformation" ever take place?

Why do you feel the need to make such an effort to gain a foothold in our political system? Just curious, as I've always felt that religion has no business in politics...

[Peregrino]

Alright guys - we're beating a dead horse. This thread has quit being educational and it was never very entertaining; therefore, IT IS NOW CLOSED.