Dragon Skin Testing and the Truth

[txzen]

I claim to be nothing more than interested in this topic. I do see it is sensitive topic. I have been following dragon skin for many years and the fact that advanced body armor is not available for public use I came here assuming/hoping that the military proffesionals here would have more of the experience I don't have.

Just typingin "zylon fails in the line of duty" in a google iteration returns http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...ty&btnG=Search
the third one is a report of a griving widow of a husband who was killed while wearing zylon fibers that had 2 penetrations http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005...2005194524.txt


I think our backgrounds are effecting our ability to communicate. There are of course networks that report news to me and websites that link topics of interest but I can see in your sense of the world I am not a commanding officer so it would be easy for you to say no one reports to me, I can accept that.

Typing "dragon skin fails in the line of duty" returns http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...ty&btnG=Search with none in the top twenty of an occurence of an in the line of duty failure. about half are reports of testing failures and the other half are the successes of the independant tests

I have 0 dogs in this fight aside from trying a desire to make sure the testing that is government run is fair and balanced and that reports of "mafias" and influence peddling are explored so that it happens as little as possible.

My post was only in response to others posting from defensereview.com and about the decertification. In my post of contention I didn't refer to DOD testing, I didn't refer to army certification, I didn't refer to FAT tests, I didn't refer to anything other than the recent justice decertification and the recent questions arising from why zylon armor with a know failure was not decertified with the speed of the dragon skin certification. I really want to reiterate that I have no financial stake in any armor company. I have no friends in any of these industries further more I have nothing to gain other than purely intelectualy by talking about these topics.

About being busted for not posting iin the intro section, I just saw a "come to ps.com there is a great discussion" and I had lots of questions for you guys and mr masters and just was too hasty in thinking that I was invited and didn't read all the intro specifics. I have posted on many forums and can't name more than this one that have a required introduction in a forum. I have nothing against it I fixed the problem as fast as I could.

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by txzen

I have posted on many forums and can't name more than this one that have a required introduction in a forum. I have nothing against it I fixed the problem as fast as I could.

If you read the rules you will realize you are a guest in "our" house. This website is for US Army Special Forces Soldiers, often referred to as the Green Berets, all others are guests.

We have a very low tolerance for unintelligent posts, some like myself, have almost zero tolerance.

Those other websites you have visited have a "profit motive" hence the nice, sensitive, PC, atmosphere. We don't answer to advertisers and we do not have a profit motive, we answer to no one. If you think we're hostile on here you should see us on the battle field.

Re-read the rules again, just so you understand our operating environment and rules of engagement. You are welcome to stay as long as you abide by the rules.

Team Sergeant

[txzen]

I think I was mistaken, sorry, I wasn't comparing your website to anyone elses just trying to state my experience in that I was invited to discuss this issue and was wrong to expect the site was like most others. I have now in fact read the rules and corrected my mistake. I meant nothing negative about your sight. I was trying to say it was different and I sign up for so much stuff in a year that I got into a habit and it got me in trouble.

Is sfft.org a good site as it is non-profit educational? I know their views might differ from you guys but I wonder you think on a credibility, motive or fact based assesment? I know they do accept donations and have a membership for donation policy does that and google banner ads effect these aspects in your opinon?

[Ambush Master]

Originally Posted by txzen

I think I was mistaken, sorry, I wasn't comparing your website to anyone elses just trying to state my experience in that I was invited to discuss this issue and was wrong to expect the site was like most others. I have now in fact read the rules and corrected my mistake. I meant nothing negative about your sight. I was trying to say it was different and I sign up for so much stuff in a year that I got into a habit and it got me in trouble.

Is sfft.org a good site as it is non-profit educational? I know their views might differ from you guys but I wonder you think on a credibility, motive or fact based assesment? I know they do accept donations and have a membership for donation policy does that and google banner ads effect these aspects in your opinon?

Great!!! Those people accept "Donations"!!! We stand on our own and can/will speak our mind without regard to "The Hand That Feeds Us" mentality!!!! How much does pinnacle or any of their minions contribute to "Buy Space" and alliegance on that Board?!?!

I quote:

"Those other websites you have visited have a "profit motive" hence the nice, sensitive, PC, atmosphere. We don't answer to advertisers and we do not have a profit motive, we answer to no one. If you think we're hostile on here you should see us on the battle field."


Mister, or what ever you are, you have ventured into a realm that you are ill prepared to enter and expect to be able to defend yourself, much less survive!!!

I suggest that you try removing your Brain Housing Group from your 4th point of contact and wake up to the reality of what is being discussed here!!!

Good luck!!
Martin

[NousDefionsDoc]

Just typingin "zylon fails in the line of duty" in a google iteration returns http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...&btn G=Search
the third one is a report of a griving widow of a husband who was killed while wearing zylon fibers that had 2 penetrations http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005...2005194524.txt

He was an LEO. How about you show us a soldier with a zylon vest failure. Then show us total zylon wearers/failure and then total DS wearers.

Then show us how many vests were approved by NIJ that had zylon in them before it was a known problem. And then how many were issued after the problem became known.

What is the "grieving widow" supposed to prove? you think you are going to slide that one by here?

[NousDefionsDoc]

Is sfft.org a good site as it is non-profit educational? I know their views might differ from you guys but I wonder you think on a credibility, motive or fact based assesment? I know they do accept donations and have a membership for donation policy does that and google banner ads effect these aspects in your opinon?

They basically demanded that the US military buy DS and issue it without having done their research. They accused the people that make super human effort every day to get the best kit they can for troops of being sell outs.

Do you think it's a good site?

[txzen]

Thanks, I understand it is your belief that any cite that has outside funding is likely going to be corrupted I didn't know if non profits were in a grey area for you now I think I have a better view of what you will consider credible.. Posting an article from a site you don't trust is pretty much not going to matter. Speaking to my opinion of sfft I have no idea. I am just trying to gather as many opinons and facts as I can. They report on Lab Testing they say meets NIJ standards and I don't see why those reports would be any less credible than any other report of a lab test. Just to defend myself I haven't called for a forced purchase or a forced side by side or a retest. I pretty much wanted to see if anyone had any other experiences with certifications or decertifications. Also I believe I was the pf.com asset that asked Allan Bain, the purported inventor of Dragon Skin armor or technology, to chat on pf.com. He was and I believe still is very critical of M. Neal, owner of dragon skin technology, and backs the DOD assessments 100 percent. He of course has his own armor coming on to the market so we all know that.

I talked about the LEO aspects because previously their were posts about the NIJ certifications. I know there is a difference, I thought if someone else brought it up they would like to see the latest. My comments about zylon were of course just to discuss NIJ's standards and practices. But NIJ certs do seem to play a role in aspects of things that effect DOD.

http://www.lexdon.com/article/DHB_Co...icer/5365.html
Speaking to Zylon this link says that DHB, Armor Group's customers include the U.S. Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard, Secret Service, FBI, DEA, INS, ATF, NATO, U.S. Marshals, the NYC Police Department, the LA Police Department, and the California Highway Patrol, would discontinue the use of zylon after the decertification by the NIJ.

Here is the question that is raised: http://www.firstchoiceclassaction.com/ On August 24, 2005, the United States Department of Justice, National Institute of Justice, decertified all vests containing-Zylon® and on the same date issued a warning stating "The National Institute of Justice hereby advises that it has identified…Zylon® as a material that appears to create a risk of death or serious injury as a result of degraded ballistic performance when used in body armor."

That was 2005 that the NIJ decertified zylon and the shooting in the line of duty where zylon failed was in 2003. http://forums.officer.com/forums/arc...p/t-18482.html Oceanside Police Officer Tony Zeppetella was killed in the line of duty on June 13, 2003. http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2006..._0511_7_06.txt that link isn't a forum.

I was just wondering if NIJ changed their standards of decertification maybe they "learned" something from the zylon tragedy? And I think I found it here http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a 2005 interium body army requirements. Until I found that it seemed that the standards had changed and they had. So I had a question it was legitimate I believe and found the answer myself. good ole google So NIJ used the 4th reason to decertify under the 2005 interum requirements 4. NIJ determines, at any time, that the evidence provided to NIJ as described in Requirements ¶ 2(b)(3) and/or in connection with the model is insufficient to demonstrate to the satisfaction of NIJ that the model will maintain its ballistic performance (consistent with its originally declared threat level) over its declared warranty period.
but reports say that 5 years-9 & 1/2 months to 6 years-8 months old armor was tested at an NIJ testing facility. Data is all good I guess because there is no contradictory reports about july 10th 2007 testing. That is the odd part test on 5 and 6 year old armor is provided and still a decert because they weren't satified with evidence that the armor would hold up to the 6 year warranty. I get the requirements changed from zylon but I just don't see the evidence it didn't pass NIJ tests. Maybe it will surface?

[Guy]

txzen:

There are a few things I want to ask you....

1. Can you tell me the weight of DS, compared to what is being issued too military personnel?

2. Have you EVER used DS in a hostile environment?

[NousDefionsDoc]

You didn't answer the questions that were asked did you.

What does NIJ do for environmental testing?

[txzen]

I called pinnacle a few months ago and I believe they said that the weight of the full torso wrap armor was 35 pounds if memory serves. Note that I believe the full torso wrap covers more than front back and side sapi plates. And no I have not worn any body armor.
I have read that scalar armor is more comfortable I don't know of course. I am not backing any horse in any race, I really am interested in the new technology, and I am interested in the procurement process. When I talked with allan bain he seemed to really think that scalar armor is the future and I suggested pouches for each disc so there is no glue to fail and cause slippage he said it would work but the manufacturing would be a nightmare. So maybe they are just a sewing breakthrough away from something more comfortable and safer. Speaking to weight I read the other day that there was a commander in the middle east asking for permission to let his soldiers not wear the side plates to increase comfort and descrease weight because the region they were working in was relatively passive. Maybe this is evidence of a the need for a certain tool for a certain job?

Again I knowing people have a more informed view of the equiptment than I do. Maybe one of the soldiers tried on some dragon skin before it was banned from use?

[txzen]

Sorry, I edited the previos post and started the last post before I had a chance to read the last two comments directed at me.

The Interceptor Body Armor system weighs a total of 16.4 pounds (7.4 kg), with the vest weighing 8.4 pounds (3.8 kg), and two plates inserted weighing four pounds (1.8 kg) each. This is considerably lighter than the previous body armor fielded in Somalia weighing 25.1 pounds (11.4 kg) that most troops complained was too heavy and unwieldy for combat operations.

Side-SAPIs are also available, along with the newer version of the vital plate, the Enhanced SAPI (E-SAPI). These two systems are becoming standard for forward deployed troops in OEF and OIF III. The E-SAPI plates are thicker and heavier than the normal SAPIs, but they offer increased protection from M-80 armor piercing ammunition. The Side-SAPIs protect the side of the torso under the arm. With the Interceptor body armor, E-SAPI plates (10.9 lb), S-SAPI plates (7.1 lb), and with the neck, throat and groin protectors installed the armor is significantly heavier than 16.4 pounds (7.44 kg). A combat load of ammunition and first aid kit are almost universally attached to the webbing on the vest, adding even more mass.

That is from wiki. So basically consensus is that IBA weights 16.4 pounds before side plates and before neck and groin protector. See if this is right... Start with 16.4 add 2.9 pounds for the difference in weight of upgrading to E-SAPI then add 7.1 pounds for side plates... 16.4 + 2.9 + 7.1 for 26.4 pounds side front and back e-sapi protection. again I not that I think that the full torso wrap that i quoted covers more than front and side plates do with less. Lighter is better and more bullet resistant is better.

[txzen]

And to NIJ testing and eviroment I don't think they have anywhere near the same enviroment tests that the FAT test of the army does. http://www.nlectc.org/testing/ba_environment.html "It is important to note that body armor, as a system of several material components, is generally designed to offer environmental protection to its ballistic materials; and most care and maintenance instructions, including NIJ Guide 100-01, Selection and Application Guide to Personal Body Armor, advise users about cleaning, storage, and exposure of the armor to moisture, chemicals, and direct sunlight. NIJ compliant body armor is tested while in a wet condition per the requirements of NIJ Standard-0101.04, providing a quantitative measure of the ballistic performance of the armor during a short-term extreme moisture environment. "

So I don't think NIJ standards are near as hard as DOD standards but they are individual standards. NIJ only enviromental test is in a west condition as far as I know.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by txzen

I called pinnacle a few months ago and I believe they said that the weight of the full torso wrap armor was 35 pounds if memory serves. Note that I believe the full torso wrap covers more than front back and side sapi plates. And no I have not worn any body armor.
I have read that scalar armor is more comfortable I don't know of course. I am not backing any horse in any race, I really am interested in the new technology, and I am interested in the procurement process. When I talked with allan bain he seemed to really think that scalar armor is the future and I suggested pouches for each disc so there is no glue to fail and cause slippage he said it would work but the manufacturing would be a nightmare. So maybe they are just a sewing breakthrough away from something more comfortable and safer. Speaking to weight I read the other day that there was a commander in the middle east asking for permission to let his soldiers not wear the side plates to increase comfort and descrease weight because the region they were working in was relatively passive. Maybe this is evidence of a the need for a certain tool for a certain job?

Again I knowing people have a more informed view of the equiptment than I do. Maybe one of the soldiers tried on some dragon skin before it was banned from use?

Negative, read the Army report in this thread for accurate numbers and area coverage comparisons. You seem to be lacking basic background info that we have already established here which is necessary for informed discussion.

You cannot believe the difference and how much more difficult it makes movement.

TR

[txzen]

47.5 some sources medium 33.5 other sources, I just quoting the weigt I was told on the phone that I hear directly from their sales. At this point I am not even comparing Dragon Skin with IBA. I just talking about NIJs decertificaion standards and the reports of independant tests. Like with the DOD the FAT test was ugly for Dragon Skin. But NIJ testing isn't that rigorous and it was decertified for lack of evidence of warranty fufillage. And then there seems to be tests done on 5 and 6 year old vests at one of the two NIJ certificated testing grounds and sent to NIJ.

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by txzen

47.5 some sources medium 33.5 other sources, I just quoting the weigt I was told on the phone that I hear directly from their sales. At this point I am not even comparing Dragon Skin with IBA. I just talking about NIJs decertificaion standards and the reports of independant tests. Like with the DOD the FAT test was ugly for Dragon Skin. But NIJ testing isn't that rigorous and it was decertified for lack of evidence of warranty fufillage. And then there seems to be tests done on 5 and 6 year old vests at one of the two NIJ certificated testing grounds and sent to NIJ.

You cannot compare weight of a Medium to an X-Large, or any other method but area coverage to area coverage.

I believe that there is more to the NIJ decertification than warranty coverage. Have you sought opposing viewpoints, or just the Kool-Aid from SFTT and Pinnacle?

TR