War On Terror's Other Cost: Undeserved Anger At All Muslims

[T-Rock]

Why?

I'm thinking the influentials, liquid gold, and the general goals of Hizb ut-Tahrir, which is an Ikhwan entity, as well as what you are alluding to...
http://www.hizb-america.org/multimed...onference-2009

[nmap]

Originally Posted by blue902

Look, T Rock, to be frank, most Muslims on the street are not aware of the people you reference. They are influenced by imams on the radio.

Not unlike people in the U.S. who listen to various radio and television shows. Limbaugh does influence people in the U.S., so I can see how some imam might do the same. However, there is a deeper level - for example, the Republicans gained Limbaugh's help by giving him a certain amount of recognition. So we have a case where someone influenced the radio personality.

To change values...to introduce a sort of computer virus of the mind that subtly modifies the target audience...we would need to find the core of influence. They exist, surely - but I don't know who they might be. Of course, I don't really need to. Hopefully, someone does.

Rhetorical observation: perhaps the drug gangs, with their offers of "gold or lead" provide a notion of how to address specific elements. It does not matter how the centers of influence are turned, only that they are turned.

Originally Posted by blue902

NMAP-- I met a CA officer attached to SF in Djibouti (sp?) who was convinced that water wars are what my generation will face in Arabia and North Africa and South America. Good thing to know some Spanish too huh?

Water is likely to represent a global phenomenon. Take a look at the book "When the rivers run dry" by Pearce - there is a remarkable correlation between conflict and water. Pakistan, their floods notwithstanding, is a case in point. Combine population growth with more volatile weather patterns and limited water resources, and you have a formula for resource wars. In my opinion, we will see them. This is not the time to cut the Pentagon budget.

It isn't just Spanish that we'll need. I strongly suspect that we will enter a period of general warfare - with the enemy, perhaps, being innocent men, women, and children who seek only to survive. Yet make no mistake, if we suppose a limitation of essential resources, including food and water, those hypothetical innocents may constitute quite a deadly enemy.

The above paragraph may imply that our own culture - Western civilization, for lack of a better term, or group A if you prefer - may face its own crisis of values and beliefs. Thus, the underlying value system of our own culture may be destroyed and reformed, purely in the interests of survival. For examples, see Diamond's book "Collapse", with particular focus on the failure of rains in Central America several hundred years ago. As I recall, casualty rates approached 99%.

[Thomas Paine]

Originally Posted by blue902

Look, T Rock, to be frank, most Muslims on the street are not aware of the people you reference. They are influenced by imams on the radio. I looked through them and some of the things your references mention match up-- and some of them don't. Arab Muslims care about Gaza, and most edicts are in reference to that.

There is apparently a culture of academia which studies Islam in the M.E. and another in the ME which seeks to counter. Having met with reps of both, I have to say neither is connected to the street reality significantly.

I met an Egyptian high senator (they do it british house of lords style) who insisted that Iran needs nukes to stabilize the ME-- and an Israeli who insisted that nuclear war was upon them-- and Palestinians who didn't have anything against Israelis. There are all kinds of people.

NMAP-- I met a CA officer attached to SF in Djibouti (sp?) who was convinced that water wars are what my generation will face in Arabia and North Africa and South America. Good thing to know some Spanish too huh?

Is this confusing the difference between the doctrine and it's requirements (IDEOLOGY) and the PEOPLE who are under it's influence?

[blue902]

I'm referring to people I met who are active participants in US institutions and also hold positions of influence in the M.E.

One that sticks out was a guy who was just educated as all hell and insisted the entire M.E. needed nuke technology. Each country. For nuclear energy, of course.

There is a very influential Arab faction, the rich internationals, who are not under the influence of Islam in the same way as the poor. But, their loyalties still lie very strongly on their own side.

[alright4u]

http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_...jefferson.html

[GratefulCitizen]

Originally Posted by nmap

That's an interesting idea. Use the influentials to modify the value system, and you modify the overall group.

By the way - you mention overpopulation. I agree. Combine water issues with population pressures and add some poverty, and it seems likelihood radicalism of some sort will follow.

Overpopulation is an issue because of increased life expectancy.
The world fertility rate has been in decline.
http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=...fertility+rate

Worldwide, the replacement rate is something like 2.3 children per woman.
The world could be below that rate within 20 years.

What happens when there are a bunch of old people depending on a bunch of young people and resources are limited?
What happens when old people and unborn children become disposable?

With socialism, nobody needs kids to take care of them in old age, they'll just borrow the labors of someone else's kids.
Tragedy of the commons.

Don't think overpopulation will be the problem.

Japan is suffering from demographic implosion.
The EU is suffering from demographic implosion.

China is a demographic time bomb.
What happens when all those boys grow up and want wives?

As you love to say, Nmap, "demographics is destiny".

[ZonieDiver]

What happens when old people and unborn children become disposable?

At least that one is easy:

Soylent Green!

[nmap]

Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen

Don't think overpopulation will be the problem.

(Chuckle) Will be? I'm of the view that we are presently in population overshoot, and hence that the overpopulation event has already occurred. The consequences remain to be experienced. All MOO, YMMV.

Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen

As you love to say, Nmap, "demographics is destiny".

Full agreement there.

Originally Posted by ZonieDiver

At least that one is easy:

Soylent Green!

I suspect so....

[1stindoor]

Originally Posted by ZonieDiver

At least that one is easy:

Soylent Green!

So much better for you than Soylent Red too.

[Penn]

There is a very influential Arab faction, the rich internationals, who are not under the influence of Islam in the same way as the poor. But, their loyalties still lie very strongly on their own side.

This fraction is the power elite, all their power is vest in the belly of the beast, they use it as a weapon:the uneducated, dirt poor, religiously suppressed masses. Decapitate this structure, and the entire culture implodes. MOO

[nmap]

Originally Posted by Penn

This fraction is the power elite, all their power is vest in the belly of the beast, they use it as a weapon:the uneducated, dirt poor, religiously suppressed masses. Decapitate this structure, and the entire culture implodes. MOO

Interesting. Would this not imply that there is no real way to influence them, leaving only more traditional approaches such as worked in previous wars?

And, might it be to their advantage to excite and export their undesirables - much as Europe did during the Crusades? Relief of population pressures just might be their hidden agenda.

[blue902]

Originally Posted by nmap

Interesting. Would this not imply that there is no real way to influence them, leaving only more traditional approaches such as worked in previous wars?

And, might it be to their advantage to excite and export their undesirables - much as Europe did during the Crusades? Relief of population pressures just might be their hidden agenda.

They're educated in the West, and then return home to take positions of influence, in business and in the government.

Perhaps influencing immigrants deliberately during the educational period is the main opportunity our society has to work positive changes into the mentality of the international power group of Muslims; but, that's a thin hope. We have already had their educations for a while, and the university system here hasn't produced any pro American 'International Muslims for America' support groups.
Instead, we have the reverse, with Americans on convoys to Gaza.


And, to the relief of population pressure/colonization/cultural invasion-- that's a tried and true strategy for them. It's right there in the manual, and in their history, and in their current preaching. Europe is getting flooded with them. The US is just starting to see the front of a tidal wave.

[nmap]

Originally Posted by blue902

We have already had their educations for a while, and the university system here hasn't produced any pro American 'International Muslims for America' support groups.
Instead, we have the reverse, with Americans on convoys to Gaza.

Well...I guess I'm not surprised. The U.S. University has lots of people who are remarkably critical of the U.S. and its policies. According to many within the university system (them, not me!) the U.S. is a racist, brutally unfair, fascist society that is designed to exploit persons of color around the world. (Again, that's NOT my attitude!) So if Islamic society says the the U.S. is evil, and they come over here and are told exactly the same thing, it's hardly surprising that they believe it.

And, too, the U.S. seems to be in a period when it questions (denies?) all the old values and assumptions. In fact, for the general population, it almost seems that there are no values. But I think people yearn for values and standards, and Islam seems to supply that. If the above is true, then we face an uphill fight.

I go back to my theory. We're group A, they're group B. Either A will be destroyed and B will win, or vice-versa. Perhaps both A and B will be destroyed. By destruction, I do not necessarily mean killed - the elimination I speak of could be the ruin of their culture. I do not think the West should be sanguine about victory.

[GratefulCitizen]

It is important to remember that the war on terror is not about anger at muslims.

The warriors of this nation are not driven by anger or hatred.
Their motivations and thoughts are much higher.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr7Dc...ayer_embedded#!

Thank you to all who have sacrificed so much.

[Stingray]

Originally Posted by GratefulCitizen

It is important to remember that the war on terror is not about anger at muslims.

The warriors of this nation are not driven by anger or hatred.
Their motivations and thoughts are much higher.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr7Dc...ayer_embedded#!

Thank you to all who have sacrificed so much.

+1. Thank you.

Sincerely,