14 Dead, 50 Hurt In Mass Shooting Inside Aurora Movie Theater

[Dozer523]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

We need trained individuals that are free to carry just about anywhere and without some of the very restrictive laws or rules of engagement.
TS

You want something like a free-roaming Air Marshal, only on the ground. (I'm not being an a. . . Handcock)

I get you and agree -- in theory. But practically sounds pretty hard to do. There's lots of places on the ground unlike not so many places in the air.
One tof the reasons Air Marshals are supposed to work is the bad guy doesn't know if they are on the plane but there is a high possibility he/she is and has been waiting his whole career for this moment.

Just as easily could have been an off-duty Police Officer in the audiance. Hard problem to fix.

Bump.

Originally Posted by Badger52

That's astute you mention that 21-ft thing. Back when I was playing the "collect non-res permission slips" game I attended a class where the instructor was trying to emphasize the importance of all-around SA and threat 'management' outside this (in)famous magical Tueller distance. I got the Mattel rubber bayonet, a guy with enough 5.11 gear to match his attitude got the blue gun. I bs'd with the instructor like Maury Wills gettin' a big lead at first and owned this guy bad when I finally started at him from about 18-ft. Kinda like if he'd found himself on the wrong side of a strange town at night....

I think it takes a mindset to begin with, as well as training, to get that 'OO' piece of the loop running faster. I'm no badass but in the above I was already inside his loop even though he knew I was eventually comin' and from what direction.

There's no magic pill but training coupled with your sig line works better for me than the fetal position.

Good to know, Badger. That Tueller distance is often presented as fact. With a gun drawn approaching from the oblique and possibly misdirection become imperative, IMO.

You must have a pretty decent mile pace, and explode off the line when needed. Stacks odds and probabilities in your favor. A fighting chance that I have no doubt many on this board would be calculating (albeit subconsciously) as they close and engage the target.

[Richard]

Whole lotta coulda, shoulda, woulda in here over this situation...especially from those who ain't never and ain't gonna. <yawn>

And so it goes...

Richard

[Badger52]

Originally Posted by Sarski

Good to know, Badger. That Tueller distance is often presented as fact. With a gun drawn approaching from the oblique and possibly misdirection become imperative, IMO.

You must have a pretty decent mile pace, and explode off the line when needed. Stacks odds and probabilities in your favor. A fighting chance that I have no doubt many on this board would be calculating (albeit subconsciously) as they close and engage the target.

My distance pace or movement off my own spot relates only to that instant in front of me at the moment described, not to a MMQB'd Aurora theater shooting. I related that because I take TS's point seriously, that far too many people think things will be fine if they can keep an ID'd threat out at this 21-ft distance that has gotten way more airplay than it should. Just like they watch some outdoor shooting show & think 2 to the chest, 1 to the head, stand-back & assess will work without fail just 'cause they shot a pretty group on some static D1's.

There's very little Guv-mandated I'm in favor of; but I believe it's in folks' interest to seek out on their own varied, dynamic training. If nothing else, it can help one assess their own limitations.

Originally Posted by Badger52

My distance pace or movement off my own spot relates only to that instant in front of me at the moment described, not to a MMQB'd Aurora theater shooting. I related that because I take TS's point seriously, that far too many people think things will be fine if they can keep an ID'd threat out at this 21-ft distance that has gotten way more airplay than it should. Just like they watch some outdoor shooting show & think 2 to the chest, 1 to the head, stand-back & assess will work without fail just 'cause they shot a pretty group on some static D1's.

There's very little Guv-mandated I'm in favor of; but I believe it's in folks' interest to seek out on their own varied, dynamic training. If nothing else, it can help one assess their own limitations.

Right, stationary targets and moving targets are two different bears, and some folks can't even hit the stationary paper.

I'm fortunate enough to know one of the IDPA range masters out this way, and I know that they have some pretty dynamic courses and training.

[Cake_14N]

In my simple and humble opinion the problem here is the creation of Gun-Free zones. I bet $1 that we will eventually learn that Mr. Holmes picked his target based at least partly on the fact the guns are not allowed. He knew nobody was going to shoot back. If there was even a possibility that somebody in that theater could have been legally armed, he might have gone someplace else.

As long as we restrict law-abiding citizens the criminal element will always win.

I look for "No Firearms" signs at each entrance of business I visit. If I see the "No Firearms" sign, I take a second and re-evaluate my purchase. If I can go elsewear and make the same purchase, I do. I have been questioned by more than one employee of those businesses as to why I left and I told them the truth, I don't support businesses that discriminate against law-abiding citizens.

[DIYPatriot]

Originally Posted by Badger52

There's very little Guv-mandated I'm in favor of; but I believe it's in folks' interest to seek out on their own varied, dynamic training. If nothing else, it can help one assess their own limitations.

For me, this is spot on! A few years ago I was proud of my shooting until I was challenged by a friend of mine (firearms instructor for our deputies) to take it up a notch and work through the various courses offered at the range. From force on force to urban combat, etc, my eyes were widely opened to a great deal of deficiencies. I dropped the ego really damn fast and realized if I was to improve I would have to attack my weaknesses and make them my strengths.

Shooting static targets at 10 meters or less is fun practice and I'm all about fun, but to truly grab the tiger by the tail you have to push outside your comfort zone and be willing to cross-examine your skill set. At least that's how I learn YMMV. I continue to train and rehearse scenarios, too, and I'm far from QP level proficiency. Those guys are on the high dive while I'm in the 3' wading pool.

Now, doing it in real life with tear gas in a densely populated darkened room while being completely out-gunned, surprised, etc? I try to mentally rehearse that and all I can think is, "MY GOD...what horrible odds - how on earth would I close distance and gain some sort of advantage? Or would I even be somewhere I'm not allowed to carry?" - probably no to the latter, though I can't avoid all gun-free zones, sadly.

Thank goodness our theater still allows us to carry, however, my 17 rounds chambered in 9mm versus 100 rounds .223/5.56, shotgun, etc...those numbers do not support my life expectancy, but I'd like to think I'd go down fighting before I curled up and became an easier target. For me, any kind of violent response to an attack is better than nothing.

[Richard]

This thread is beginning to sound like a 'Terror at Beslan' seminar by he whose name I won't speak. I can't wait for the e-tools to come out. Just sayin'...

And so it goes...

Richard

[DIYPatriot]

Originally Posted by Richard

This thread is beginning to sound like a 'Terror at Beslan' seminar by he whose name I won't speak. I can't wait for the e-tools to come out. Just sayin'...

Yes, you have a very good point. Didn't mean to head that direction...

[ZonieDiver]

This thread is beginning to sound like a 'Terror at Beslan' seminar by he whose name I won't speak. I can't wait for the e-tools to come out. Just sayin'...

And so it goes...

Richard

You've got that right! I was thinking I had stumbled in to an AirSoft forum there for a minute or two.

Anyone ever heard of the man who dropped his keys in the snow as he was trying to open the door to his house?

He was soon after seen searching under the corner streetlight and explaining that he was looking for the key in the light, since it was dark at his door.

Doing something is good, even if accomplishes nothing. Correct?

You lost me there, sport. Would you like to expound on your point further?

[miclo18d]

Would a sharpened Spetznaz shovel be considered a concealed weapon?


Couldn't resist.

I would say that the main points have been pounded:

1. Gun free zones aren't.

2. Better to fight on your feet than die on your knees.

Originally Posted by miclo18d

Would a sharpened Spetznaz shovel be considered a concealed weapon?


Couldn't resist.

I would say that the main points have been pounded:

1. Gun free zones aren't.

2. Better to fight on your feet than die on your knees.

And that the rules/laws only apply to those that follow them, and this can go both ways...at least that is what I take away from all of this.

[RB]

Originally Posted by DocIllinois

Reviewing the methods we would have, could have used to neutralize the shooter in this situation, without having actually been there, doesn't accomplish anything in the way of a situational analysis.

Unless this is an AAR. In that case, we're right on track.

I must've missed the ~sarcasm~ smiley.

This is exactly an AAR, and everyone is posting their opinions as if it were, because it is. If you think and act as you posted in your first paragraph, one would think "Why train"? Why fight"? "It doesn't do any good to have situational awareness, there's nothing you can do anyway".

I personally abhor this type of thinking. If YOU want to be an unwitting victim, please stand next to me, as I won't be, and I won't have your back, I'll have mine and my families. You'll get shot, I'll walk away.

I carry everywhere I go, I avoid gun-free zones, and I maintain SA at all times, along with practicing different scenarios that one may encounter in their daily activities. Guess we need to add a theater scenario to the list now. RIP to the victims and that was not a joke.

2c

[greenberetTFS]

This lady is absolutely awesome. Keeps 100% cool and control. She is going to be in Dispatcher training textbooks.............

One great dispatcher and an excellent response coordination by the PD.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkUi6...ature=youtu.be

Big Teddy