War On Terror's Other Cost: Undeserved Anger At All Muslims

[Thomas Paine]

Originally Posted by XavierR

Unless those Muslims view attacking the U.S. as a false jihad. You seem convinced that because some Muslim clerics advocate attacking the United States, all do. I fail to understand that logic.
You would make a pretty good extremist cleric, given your conviction that being a good muslim requires attacking the United States.

There are over a billion Muslims in this world. An Estimated five to seven million living in the United States. If all these people were supporting jihad against the United States, I think there would have been more attacks against us in the last 10 years. It appears most muslims disagree with your belief of jihad. MOO.

Why are so many Islamic Charities implicated (and often shut down) for supporting terror finance?

Supporting jihad is required by Sharia law. Where the jihad takes place is up to the zakat workers discretion. Clearly much of that money is going to funding jihad against the United States and certainly the rest of the Western world as well.

And just because shit isn't blowing up, doesn't mean it's not jihad.

Whether the individual Muslims like where the money is going or not is irrelevant.

[Thomas Paine]

Originally Posted by Sten

Sir, as we as pay billions to the Arab members of OPEC are we not the enemy? It would seem to me step one has to be stop the billions of our dollars from flowing to them.

We are our own worst enemy. That's a Dhimmi administration (yes both 43 and 44) paying jizyah.

Quran 9:29

009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

LINK:
http://www.thespiritofislam.com/text/Q14.html

[Richard]

ALL Muslims are REQUIRED to pay Zakat.

Is that a fact or an opinion?

Richard

[T-Rock]

Is that a fact or an opinion?

Richard

h1.1 Zakat is obligatory

(a) for every free Muslim (O: male, female, adult or child):
h8.17 The seventh category is those fighting for Allah, meaning people engaged in military operations {Jihad} for whom no salary has been allotted …

(Reliance of the Traveller, pages 244-274)

For the Sunni, 80-90% of the Muslim world are required to pay, unless they're MINO's

For Shia, that would be Khums, the first category which go to the Imam, lets hope he's nice...

[Richard]

ALL Muslims are REQUIRED to pay Zakat.

Nisaab PP 11-12.

http://www.zikr.co.uk/books/Zakaat.html

This article also lists a number of exceptions - is that true?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakat

Richard

[blue902]

I see your scrimshaw and haberdashery and I raise you "zakatability".

MOO, there is clearly a misunderstanding going on here as to who is paying for the bulk of --Islamist efforts in the west including peaceful and non-peaceful efforts-- I was hinting at Saudi Arabia and Iran and their fellows.


ETA: oops- had zakat on the brain and mistyped. All Muslims do pay zakat when they are not under hardship themselves, which Richard referred to. But not everyone is a great Muslim, either, especially the rich international Muslims.

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by akv

I guess I have to root for the Celtics going forward...

Now THAT'S crazy talk.

[T-Rock]

MOO, there is clearly a misunderstanding going on here as to who is paying for the bulk of zakat.

Are ALL Muslims required to follow the 5 pillars of Islam?

“It is not correct that Shias avoid paying Zakat as prescribed by the Holy Quran.
Zakat is one of the five pillars of religion. It is mentioned in the traditions that, Prayers will not be accepted from those who do not pay Zakat. And if someone avoids giving one carat of Zakat, he will die a death of Jew or Christian”

I think it would be a misconception to think Shia didn’t pay Zakat, nevertheless, The Five pillars of Islam in Sunni schools of Fiqh have this to say:

Hanafi Fiqh:

9.2.1Those Who May Receive Zakat
7)In the Path of Allah: are the stranded fighters. (Jihadists)
http://www.ummah.net/Al_adaab/fiqh/saheefah.html

The Hanafi books mention that the way of Allah refers to those fighting as well as those wanting to offer the Hajj.

Maliki Fiqh:

The soldier (Mujahed): Those fighting for the sake of Allah
In the Maliki school of thought a person fighting for Allah is given Zakat money even if he or she is considered affluent.
http://www.rahima.org/zakat.htm

Hanbali Fiqh:

Those fighting for Allah…
http://mac.abc.se/~onesr/h//#_Toc50551565

Shafi'i Fiqh:

See the Reliance of the Traveller.

80 percent of 1.2 billion is quite a large number…even just 20% - let us hope for MINO’s

Raymond Ibrahim discusses how Islamic charitable contributions often end up in the hands of Islamic jihadists in the videos below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BRGG-BhlY4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Voff1QJVzIM

Bostom discusses Sufism:
http://www.americanthinker.com/print...ufi_jihad.html

[blue902]

I think this thread has some more mileage in it- especially in regard to nmaps proposition.

The idea that is us or them- dying or fundamentally changing- has come up before. The solutions have been, one the one side- it better be them either way. On the other, it is 'we have more options than just those two and one of those options or several will come to light and save the day'.

Neither of these approaches take grasp of the factors driving the region. Overpopulation and Saudi Arabia are two of those.

There is a business theory about "influentials"- that finding a 10% section of the population that influence the other 90% disproportionately will be an effective way to influence the entire population of consumers. That same theory is applicable here, but perhaps not to people.

What are those 10% factors in the region, and are they being addressed?

[GratefulCitizen]

Originally Posted by blue902

I think this thread has some more mileage in it- especially in regard to nmaps proposition.

The idea that is us or them- dying or fundamentally changing- has come up before. The solutions have been, one the one side- it better be them either way. On the other, it is 'we have more options than just those two and one of those options or several will come to light and save the day'.

Neither of these approaches take grasp of the factors driving the region. Overpopulation and Saudi Arabia are two of those.

There is a business theory about "influentials"- that finding a 10% section of the population that influence the other 90% disproportionately will be an effective way to influence the entire population of consumers. That same theory is applicable here, but perhaps not to people.

What are those 10% factors in the region, and are they being addressed?

Influence would appear to be what the terrorists tactics are all about.
Their strategy is long-term.

They cannot reverse the battlefield decision.
Their actions are directed at influencing the political will of the American voter.

"Useful idiots" in this country further the terrorist agenda in the hopes that they may be perceived as wise philospher kings, above the fray; as if they're breaking up a fight between misbehaving children.
Meanwhile, the infiltrations and alterations of society continue.

The terrorists' agenda may take decades or much longer to achieve.
They are fine with this timeline.

The useful idiots care not what happens to posterity.
They just might get to enjoy "peace for our time".

[nmap]

Originally Posted by blue902

What are those 10% factors in the region, and are they being addressed?

That's an interesting idea. Use the influentials to modify the value system, and you modify the overall group.

By the way - you mention overpopulation. I agree. Combine water issues with population pressures and add some poverty, and it seems likelihood radicalism of some sort will follow.

[T-Rock]

There is a business theory about "influentials"...

Although it doesn't address the Supremacist Ideology of Islam, or Taqi ad-Din Ahmad ibn Taymiyyah, meet the influentials It's short & sweet, most of what you already know...

(Part 1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zp4yHd0tCRQ
(Part 2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQn5yahsCBM

Don't leave out Fetullah Gulen or Tarq Ramadan...

[blue902]

Look, T Rock, to be frank, most Muslims on the street are not aware of the people you reference. They are influenced by imams on the radio. I looked through them and some of the things your references mention match up-- and some of them don't. Arab Muslims care about Gaza, and most edicts are in reference to that.

There is apparently a culture of academia which studies Islam in the M.E. and another in the ME which seeks to counter. Having met with reps of both, I have to say neither is connected to the street reality significantly.

I met an Egyptian high senator (they do it british house of lords style) who insisted that Iran needs nukes to stabilize the ME-- and an Israeli who insisted that nuclear war was upon them-- and Palestinians who didn't have anything against Israelis. There are all kinds of people.



NMAP-- I met a CA officer attached to SF in Djibouti (sp?) who was convinced that water wars are what my generation will face in Arabia and North Africa and South America. Good thing to know some Spanish too huh?

[T-Rock]

Look, T Rock, to be frank, most Muslims on the street are not aware of the people you reference.

What influences the Imams on the radio, where do they get their source material ?

[blue902]

Originally Posted by T-Rock

What influences the Imams on the radio, where do they get their source material ?

BLUF: Saudi Arabian style governments that have an interest in creating another billion Muslims in the next decade.


Not the what but the WHY is the important point. Where? the holy Quran. Why? Very important question, one we have all danced around.

MOO-- Why I am hearing dictates to slaughter Westerners-- I pretty much attribute the whole thing to Saudi style Muslim Brotherhood types.

Another thing-- There is no free media in the ME. There is no independent journalist who would report you were captured, tortured, and killed, if that happened. There is only state media, and only what Mubarak wants to hear comes on the air. That's a fact, Jack.

So the entirety of this imamish advertising is very much supported by governmental powers (MB), although Mubarak would send them all to Mars if that would keep him in power for another 30 years.

I heard a joke in the East once--

God is reading a newspaper and realizes Mubarak has been in power for 30 years. He sends Gabriel down to bring him home. Gabriel says, It's time to part ways with your people Hasni. Hasni says, "Really? Where are they going?"

I saw this in the Economist eventually and it is a real joke! But it's illegal. Consider yourself part of Arab culture.