Point Shooting

[hoepoe]

Very interesting and informative thread.

I do realize some of this thread refers to "point shooting" as pointing from the waist. I have always understood pooint shooting as pointing at your target with the weapon eye level so that's what the following refers to.

I have been training in and using point shooting or instinctive shooting for close to 20 years and agree with many of the posts here; you're still aiming at some level. The farther away the target, the more you use your sights. The "point" aspect is simply to get your first round on target asap. If shooting correctly (stance, grip, etc.) if your first shot is a hit, the following shots will follow suite. Even when point shooting, the doctrine states, "see" your target VIA the sights. Sight picture (unless in darkness).

The "pointing" is the method to get "on target" quickly.

Hoepoe

[Bill Harsey]

Originally Posted by Bill Harsey

Col. Rex Applegate had always stressed to me that point shooting as he taught it was AIMED FIRE and to always bring the handgun to eye level before shooting. I'm starting to think what he was doing was very close to what you call getting a Flash Front Site.

... and the words Col. Rex Applegate said surrounding this topic, that stick clearly in my head, were "this is aimed fire, not sighted fire"

Since Applegate's name is attached to some of this I thought I'd better get the quote right.

[Team Sergeant]

On second thought I think "point-shooting" is a great idea!!!!!

More people trained in the "lost-art" of point shooting the better! In fact those that enjoy the point shooting techniques might want to look into the gangsta grip.

Team Sergeant

[I feel a whole lot safer already!]

[Dusty]

1. All fingers are capable of pointing.
2. Never point at anything you do not intend to frighten.
3. Always know what's behind what you're pointing at.
4. Know your fingers.
5. Never pick your nose with a pointing finger.
6. Never point with your middle finger.
7. Never pull the trigger until you're pointing in the general direction of your target.
8. Never load your weapon until you're ready to point it in the general direction of your target.
9. Use shotshell ammunition whenever possible to increase the possibility of a hit.
10. Never drink other than malt liquor when pointshooting.

[Bill Harsey]

Team Sergeant,
Applegate was one of the guys who researched fast shooting (as directed by one William Joseph Donovan) and trained it in WW2 to others.

The 1911 .45 was the standard pistol that I saw in the training films when the OSS files were declassified.

It was how to acquire a target fast and hit it under stress.

This was NOT shooting from the hip stuff. They did the best they could having only months or weeks to train young men to go to war.

The more I've learned about how you all shoot and having spent time around Applegate shooting... these may be converging lines of thought. You all have just taken it further.

Point Shooting was never intended to be shooting from the hip.

Edited to add: One of the things Applegate taught was to squeeze the trigger as soon as the front sight was on the target.
That's why i made the "converging lines" comment.

[Dusty]

If you practiced enough and had the inherent talent to develop the proficiency to engage without using your front sight, you could do it. Bill Jordan was outstanding, as is Munden and others. Jordan more or less teaches the technique in one of my favorite books, No Second Place Winner.

But to standardize and expedite the training of an individual shooter, the front sight technique is basically mandatory in my experience; that point did not hit home with me while teaching LBG's to shoot High Powers, but in readying female medical personnel on their way down south.

Inherently, a woman will most likely be more accurate in her first gunfight if she never shot the handgun during her trainup because of the flinch. Once they do shoot, you have to do dummy drills (no offense) with them exhaustively until they get past the flinching. These drills and others incorporate sighting the weapon on the target, and would inherently be more suffessful in the elimination of a threat than teaching them to shoot instinctively due to the accuracy developed via repitition (mandated by the flinch drilling).

Using female medical personnel who are non-shooters as your base line for your student model, you find out that the quickest, most efficient method of training someone to successfully engage a target is by getting a sight picture as you press the trigger.

That's what I learned, anyway.

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

On second thought I think "point-shooting" is a great idea!!!!!

More people trained in the "lost-art" of point shooting the better! In fact those that enjoy the point shooting techniques might want to look into the gangsta grip.

Team Sergeant

[I feel a whole lot safer already!]

I like the shooting techniques of "curved" shots around objects in order hit my target.

[tom kelly]

Train as you will fight & Fight as you train ! Keep your eye on the front sight and NEVER depend on luck.....Regard's, Tom Kelly

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Bill Harsey

Team Sergeant,
Edited to add: One of the things Applegate taught was to squeeze the trigger as soon as the front sight was on the target.
That's why i made the "converging lines" comment.

We've discussed this before, this is what we call today a "flash front sight" and it's what I use to put all 13 .45 rounds in that 4 inch area as fast as I can pull the trigger.....

[Bill Harsey]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

We've discussed this before, this is what we call today a "flash front sight" and it's what I use to put all 13 .45 rounds in that 4 inch area as fast as I can pull the trigger.....

Your right and Thank you.

Was somewhat defending Col. Applegate's teaching because it was also called "point shooting". Here is why he named it that.

Before WW2 (and after) Army pistol marksmanship was standing straight up, holding the pistol at arms length with one hand and very carefully placing rounds into a piece of paper by getting both front and rear sights into focus over the long periods of time allowed between shots.

"Point shooting" by Applegate helped change the old military pistol target shooting style of training soldiers to go into combat.

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

We've discussed this before, this is what we call today a "flash front sight" and it's what I use to put all 13 .45 rounds in that 4 inch area as fast as I can pull the trigger.....

...it's not all 13 rounds in a 4" area, it's a 2.50 inch area, with rounds 2 & 3 following round 1.

You have to get real close with a mircrometer, with round 4 he gets a little sloppy, it's very clearly .0042" away from round 3.

From there, he smooths out nicely.

Sorry TS, just had to let others know.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by wet dog

I like the shooting techniques of "curved" shots around objects in order hit my target.

I liked some of the curves in that film, too.

[ZonieDiver]

Originally Posted by Razor

I liked some of the curves in that film, too.

I'm happy to see that I am not the only one to drag topics slightly OFF-topic!

[Kasik]

Bill,

Thanks for stepping in and clarifying the Colonel's thought processes.

As you and he were as close as you were I appreciate your insight and historical recollection.

There is truly nothing new under the sun. We just refine, update and re-title it.

[Kasik]

http://rare.us/story/this-gun-instru...low-your-mind/