Trauma Surgeon Evaluates LeMas - Graphic

[MRF54]

Originally Posted by KevinB

I've seen it work -and - I've velocity tested it (its fricken hot)

We had it pressure tested but no-one ever got back to me - but I surmize it above SAAMI and NATO pressure specs.

FWIW I never got better than 3-4MOA with the older stuff out of M4's and similar.

Back to the dicussion

Yes it is hot - smokin hot.

I recently had a chance to fire the LeMas 45 subgun round out of a XD45 completely stock right out of the box.... 2100fps/4''group at 30m/recoil was similar to a G23.

I shot the same setup even more recently through alum3A into live tissue at 10m/same velocity/1.5inch group/2rounds/.16split...I think you can guess what it did to the kapine!

Which rounds did you saami/nato pressure spec, how, and can you say for whom - we might have met before? I've shot a bunch (best guess is well over 1K in both rifle and pistol) and never had any weapons issues. If you have any definitve data I would really like to see it, if that is possible. I don't want to any of my guys hurt.
FYI - I am private sector.

[APLP]

Originally Posted by KevinB

I've seen it work -and - I've velocity tested it (its fricken hot)

We had it pressure tested but no-one ever got back to me - but I surmize it above SAAMI and NATO pressure specs.

FWIW I never got better than 3-4MOA with the older stuff out of M4's and similar.

Back to the dicussion

The Le Mas 5.56 SRAP LW round is manufactured with both a long barrel and short barrel pressure curve. It would be stupid to knowingly pressure test the optimized short barrel 1/7 twist ammunition in a non ported 1/7 twist test barrel length that the ammunition was specifically designed not to function from. One might conclude that anyone who had knowingly conducted such inappropriate testing methodologies of the ammunition to further disinformation and personal agenda would most definitely be a prick.

It was once reported to me by a testing facility that the Le Mas 9mm AP CQB bullet demonstrated pressure data at over twice the structural design limit of the cartridge yet could not explain why the ammunition when fired from a stock Glock-17 with no sign of a high pressure loading.

But it was always funny to watch the Le Mas critics scurry to recover with bewildered facial expressions fired Le Mas 5.56 cases during the many Armed Forces Journal live fire demo's at Blackwater.

[MRF54]

Originally Posted by Five-O

MRF54,
Just curious. Why, in your experience, should LeMas ammo be limited to SOF types and not be issued to joe?

That's a good question 5-0, thanks for asking. All I can give is my opinion, OK.

LeMas is still what I would call a speciality ammo. Not really mission specific but more like a controlled item. Basic weapons handling skills are... well, basic.

Something you might not be aware of are the number of AD/ND's that occur in normal units. Or what about gear adrift. What if a link here, a mag there were to be stolen, lost, or sold. This ammo is so powerful it needs to have greater accountability and advanced weapons skills. You don't issue something this devastating to large numbers of people who's only training with a weapon has been BRM and an annual weapons qual.

I am not making a derogatory statement about the training of our nation's military. Simply thinking how frightful it would be to face a private with a 249 who after acknowledging me decides to light my vehicle up any way. I guess it's part maturity and part training. You can't fake endurance or experience.

The next question, if I might be so bold, would be then who is this ammo for? What do you think? My opinion, can only be mine - but man do I like to share.

I am seriously interested in knowing why you might think it should (or could) be for large conventional units and if not then who? This is not a debate or even worse, an argument, this is only a thread on LeMas on a forum. What's your take on this stuff?

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by KevinB

I've seen it work -and - I've velocity tested it (its fricken hot)

We had it pressure tested but no-one ever got back to me - but I surmize it above SAAMI and NATO pressure specs.

FWIW I never got better than 3-4MOA with the older stuff out of M4's and similar.

Back to the dicussion

FWIW most people cannot shoot a weapon straight.

3-4 MOA at what distances? Have you ever shot under 3-4 MOA at (place distance here). What are your rifle marksmanship credentials? Trained military sniper or boy scout weapons instructor. You get my point I'm sure.

Now that you have peaked my interest I'll go and shoot some LeMas at what ever distance you post and get back to you concerning MOA.

( I will also shut up if you are the Canadian Sniper that made the world record shot on the terrorist a few years back. )

TS
Graduate, Special Forces Sniper School.

[MRF54]

TS, good point. We always joke with each other and say that it was 'the jerk behind the trigger.'

The good news for the marksmanship impaired/challenged is that this stuff is going to kill your enemy anyway, but it is not an excuse for poor marksmanship. For normal combat stuff all you've got to do is get some meat. I never had the patience or the desire to feed the chiggers and look through a periscope. I much prefer the 30second hero routine. Besides, assaulters have better looking gear and the chicks dig it... Ok, ok, I couldn't do the math w/o taking off my boots.

Earlier this morning I posted some questions, these were serious questions, not statements. Here they are again:

I have a few questions:
1. Is it legal and/or professional for a full-time USG employee of a Govt testing organization to openly discuss on a privately owned forum(s):
A. Testing procedures,
B. Outcomes of a limited (now perceived as biased) test,
C. Opinions of the product,
D. Opinions and accusations of the vendor?

2. Has a vendor's rights been violated when the lead person with the USG organization personally pursues (and rallies public support) to assassinate a vendors reputation and product? Why not just say it didn't pass the test and then just leave it alone?

3. Is there any type of oversite or enforcement for this type of behavior?

4. Why don't the nay sayers rally here at PS like they do everywhere else?

[KevinB]

Nope did not make the shot -- but I do know one end of a rifle from another.
I've shot with CWO(3) Haugen (ret.) when he was in Lewis...
and I dicked with Gene Econ's tgt during a Police Sniper course
(years later it dawns on him what we did)

I had some early LandWarfare 5.56mm - Stan had said that since it that lot they have improved the accuracy. I shot it at 100m and 200m from the prone from a KAC SR16 16" midlength with Douglas barrel -- the carbine is submoa with some ammuntion. it chrono'd ~10 shot avg at 3800 fps out of the 16" bbl.

I did say it was my humble opinion that the ammuntion was over pressur spec -- HOWEVER I have shot it both suppressed and unsuppressed and do not beleive that it is unstable or dangerous. No idea on the agencies methodology for testing pressure.

I did not get enough 7.62N for accuracy testing one guy zero'd it with his rifle and it was then used for live test.

I have never been able to chrono the 9mm (I ended up mixing Ranger SXT in a Sig mag to see if the chrono was buggered - no dice onyl thr SXt tracked in the chrony) that was repeated at different dates (no idea on that one) it struck the tgt fine...


I recall several times stating the ammo works.

[Peregrino]

I've been out of town for a while but it was nice to check here and find a lively discussion with quality input. MRF54 - I would like to see your questions answered too.

Now for a minor redirect. Does anybody have the money to run a study along the lines Odd Job has proposed? I too would like to see a direct comparison (conducted IAW acceptable scientific protocols) between the current ammo and the LeMas ammo in live tissue. We can follow up with a BBQ so interested parties could discuss the results. There ought to be plenty of quality meat left on the control (shot w/conventional ammo) carcasses for a really good feast. We would have to make sure ALL of the guns & ammo (of every type) was secured before the beer got served though.

Just because OJ comes across to our American sensibilities as obnoxious and condescending doesn't mean he's out there flapping. (And the QP title should mean we know how to work with "difficult" personalities.) There's nothing wrong with the science he is suggesting. At least nothing my lay person's limited intellectual capacity can discern. We can even get some real MDs and DVMs (after all we would be shooting pigs) to interpret the results. Unlike some of the others questioning the efficacy of the LeMas ammo, all he's asking for is a properly conducted imaging study to document the effects. Based on what I've seen personally and heard from A1 sources about the ammo, I think it's redundant (superfluous) but who am I to pass up the opportunity to waste ammo and party with the good guys all in the name of a worthy cause.

This gets back to my earlier point - it's all about which one is better, the LeMas or the current issue ammo. Detractors are attacking the LeMas for a variety of reasons, IMO mostly based on pet theories, personality conflicts, and (apparent) marketing hyperbole. They aren't even mentioning comparitive live tissue studies. As far as I'm concerned that's disingenuous.

Here's part of my expanded argument for a more lethal round: The issue for any combat engagement is fast, accurate fire that rapidly incapacitates the intended target. Better training and optical sighting systems have significantly improved target acquisition and engagement, especially at intermediate ranges (I like to think of intermediate as 50-150 meters with the carbine). After learning the fundamentals of marksmanship, training has usually concentrated on speed and group size - learn to shoot small groups, speed up until group size gets too large, tighten shot group maintaining speed, repeat. Issue ammo seems to work best when the group is 2-3 rounds in a 4-6 inch center of mass circle (Army study). With good training, most soldiers should be able to do that in 1.5 - 4 seconds depending on range to the target. If the claimed lethality of the LeMas ammo results in the same degree of incapicitation if 2 rounds fall within a 9-12 inch center of mass circle, there is a significant time savings realized from the reduced accuracy requirement. Tenths of a second are achievable, even hundredths of a second can be significant when the target is shooting back. Bottom Line - the Islamofascists will only get better as natural selection and Coalition marksmanship weeds out the stupid ones. Better adversaries deserve better tools for sending them to their martyr's reward. If the ammo does what has been claimed, getting it where it will do some good is important (I agree with MRF54's caveats about units of issue).

My .02 FWIW - Peregrino
(And I even broke it up into paragraphs for Kyo )

[x SF med]

I second Peregrino's last thoughts, a more accurate, deadlier round in combat is good. If the LeMas works, that's the main brunt of the argument, why it works is of secondary importance, and trade secrets are trade secrets for a reason- especially in a capitalist economy.

[MRF54]

KB,
Well, there is a really good chance our paths have crossed in the past. I know Mike Haugen fairly well and owe him for getting me out of several pickles.

>>I recall several times stating the ammo works.<< How you feel about LeMas is your opinion. I apologize if my questions seemed to infer that you didn't like or believe in the product.

ALCON: I am not looking for an argument on this topic. I have some questions. I also have a lot of experience testing the ammo and using it to hunt with. My purpose is to explore some of the issues as a professional who is interested in healthy productive discussion (isn't this a forum?). I openly agree to disagree with anyone as long as they reciprocate the same respect.

[Five-O]

I am seriously interested in knowing why you might think it should (or could) be for large conventional units and if not then who? This is not a debate or even worse, an argument, this is only a thread on LeMas on a forum. What's your take on this stuff?[/QUOTE]

MRF54,
I didn't ask the question based on opposition to the round being issued strictly to SOF. Obviously the schools/trigger time in SOF units far exceeds that of conventional units. Reading this thread and the accounts of various QP's, to me anyway, confirms the round is absolutely devastating. My thought was if the round is that good, lets get it approved and distributed to the infantry BN's and spread the joy to the bad guys.

[APLP]

Originally Posted by KevinB

Nope did not make the shot -- but I do know one end of a rifle
I had some early LandWarfare 5.56mm - Stan had said that since it that lot they have improved the accuracy. I shot it at 100m and 200m from the prone from a KAC SR16 16" midlength with Douglas barrel -- the carbine is submoa with some ammuntion. it chrono'd ~10 shot avg at 3800 fps out of the 16" bbl.

I have never been able to chrono the 9mm (I ended up mixing Ranger SXT in a Sig mag to see if the chrono was buggered - no dice onyl thr SXt tracked in the chrony) that was repeated at different dates (no idea on that one) it struck the tgt fine.

Howdy Kevin,
You know that you are still welcome to ammo anytime. If the KAC 16" was a 1/7 twist the LW bullet at 3800 fps would have not been stable. Our estimated maxium RPM for a stable trajectory in the 5.56 LW bullet is about 365,000 RPM. If the rifle barrel you fired was a 1/8 or 1/9 then the bullet should have been stable. The ammunition you tested was optimized for the 10.5-14.5 inch 1/7 twist barrels and a seperate pressure curve is provided for the longer 1/7 twist barrels.

The short barrel LW round when fired from the 10.5 inch 1/7 turns 3,025 fps, 11.5 inch 1/7 turns 3400 fps, 14.5 inch turns 3450 fps.

The short barrel LW round when fired from the 10.5 inch 1/9 turns 2750 fps, but when fired from the 14.5 1/9 turns 3550 fps.

The short barrel LW round when fired from a 20 inch non ported 20 inch 1/7 twist barrel will not be stable and demonstrate excessive pressure to include blown primers. All of our clients are briefed on these performance parameters and limitations per bullet design as they are with respect to the comparative hard amor and tissue destruction performance.

The short barrel LW round when fired from an operational 20 inch 1/9 twist barrel will turn in excess of 3850 fps with a stable trajectory and no signs of excess pressure.

The Le Mas AP 9mm when fired from a Glock-17 will turn 1940 fps, from the MP-5 2225 fps, the Colt 10.5 inch 2300 fps.

[NousDefionsDoc]

Originally Posted by KevinB

but I do know one end of a rifle from another.

I don't know Kev, but I know people that do and have had "chats" with them about him. I will confirm he knows which end the bullet comes out of.

Good to see you here Kev.

Sneaky

[swatsurgeon]

Odd Job,
I need to have a part of this discussion put to bed.....the x-rays of the ammo explain the dispersion pattern not the lethality if you are trying to compare to conventional ammunition x-rays. I have alot of x-rays of people shot in the head, chest, face, abdomen, extremities that are very much alive and I can put 2 x-rays side by side (one patient alive, the other one dead) and it tells nothing of the wound ballistic characteristics other than a 2 dimensional idea of where the bullet is.
The idea of using x-rays to determine anything else is negated by the fact that we don't have 64 slice CT scan images to see all of the tiny metallic fragments (dust) disperses in the tissues in a manner that reveals useful information. The x-rays I do have of the LeMas ammo simply shows wide scatter of the particles...you need to see and touch the tissue to really appreciate the effects that are germain to this discussion. X-rays are again a small piece of the puzzle that make up the entire picture of the LeMas injury pattern in tissue.

ss

the pic I attached...guess: alive or dead

[KevinB]

NDD, Reaper showed me the site a while back - just have not been posting or surfing much.


Stan - roger that - do you have loads for longer barrels in a 1:7?
Any luck on the OTM versions? Is a 6.8 version feasible?
Still a small world eh?

While I like the rounds - I still have concerns about effective range (all my live shoots have been under 150m) Has any longer range accuracy work been done (out to 400-500m and what is the terminal effects at that range).


Also anythough of using this as an anti-vehicle round?

[APLP]

Originally Posted by KevinB

NDD, Reaper showed me the site a while back - just have not been posting or surfing much.


Stan - roger that - do you have loads for longer barrels in a 1:7?
Any luck on the OTM versions? Is a 6.8 version feasible?
Still a small world eh?

While I like the rounds - I still have concerns about effective range (all my live shoots have been under 150m) Has any longer range accuracy work been done (out to 400-500m and what is the terminal effects at that range).


Also anythough of using this as an anti-vehicle round?

-Affirmative on the LW rounds for longer 1/7 twist barrels. The 20 inch 1/7 will do 3550 fps. Other option is a 1/8 or 1/9 twist 18 inch like Wes builds that will do 3850 fps and hold less than 2 MOA. The 14.5 inch 1/9 turns what the LW does with the 20 inch 1/7 long barrel pressure rounds do. Was the 16 inch you referenced in your earlier post, a 1/7?

-Nobody is interested in the AP OTM rounds, so they just sit.

-The 6.8 SPC is the not the case we would pick to build a heavier bullet around for a lot of reasons. the COTS non DOD bullets are pretty damn good in tissue, but not much room to build the same type of AP with non over penetration performance our 5.56 or 7.62 runs with. The DOD JAG approved 6.8 SPC rounds have no hard AP and seem to over penetrate live tissue from short barrels pretty consistently. The new "green tip" 6.8 rounds won't have hard AP capability.

-I would take the 10.5 inch 1/7 upper with LW at 150 yards before I would take the M-855 or M-262 fired from a 20 inch barrel any day in live tissue. You know you have been invited at least a couple of times to see for your self. We really don't work with anyone who cares about farther out than 150 yards with the 10.5 inch guns. The M-4 1/7 is fairly equal to the performance of the 10.5 inch from 25 yards, in tissue at 125 yards. The 18 inch guns seem to replicate the 10.5 inch in tissue from 25 yards, at distances of 250 yards.

MRF54 seems to have a good feel for the performance of the rounds and their probable performance in combat type environments. Give him a shout and ask how he sees potential TT&P's with respect to current Urban Warfare tactical doctrines.

For the folks who count on precision marksmanship skills to provide required battlefield lethality, rock on because the US procurement agencies and their employees are providing you just that. Validation of living tissue lethality on the battle field can now facilitated with new and enhanced computer modeled ballistic gelatin impacts.

For all of the those folks who want a round to demonstrate increased lethality and increased "0" mission probability from a single round impact to either full torso or appendage impact in living tissue come on down. I think that was the point of Dr. Vails article.

Roger that on vehicles.