POTUS Weighs in on Harvard Prof Arrest

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by nmap

Thus, both perceived social rank and race interacted to produce a problem.

MOO, the two factors that have not yet received the attention they merit are class and gender (specifically, the construction of masculinity).

In regards to the former, Professor Gates attempted to lord over the good sergeant with his phone call to an unidentified person to get the Cambridge PD chief involved. He also made comments about retaliation.

In regards to the latter, the sergeant in an unfortunate* interview for WBZ-TV, gave a hint that he was especially bothered by Gates's unconscionable comments about his mother. The sergeant's comments are available here.


_________________________________________
* Unfortunate for two reasons. First, because the sergeant did not detail these comments in his report and thus leaves himself vulnerable to the question "What else did he omit?"

Second, the sergeant indicates that he was "surprised" by the tenor of Gates's outburst but then points out that he worked for Brandeis University's police department. Are we to believe that during his time on that force, he never encountered the mercurial temperament of an academic? (Over the course of several facility planning meetings, I exchanged with the chief of a small college's police department knowing smirks as members of the faculty railed at the notion of having to pay for parking. Indeed, in the parking industry two of three groups of stakeholders one dreads most are medical doctors and professors.)

[Defender968]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

you contend that your experiences as a law enforcement officer provide you a more credible insight into the state of mind of people whom you've never met because they happen to remind you of events you've experienced.

Sigaba the studies you believe in so vehemently quote statistics do they not? They review samples and speak of trends, and you put a great deal of stock in them, even though you may not know the person compiling the data. An intelligent LEO is no different except we experience those data bites in person, many times over a career and become attune to the trends because it can quite literally cost us our lives if we ignore them. You may not hold LEOs in very high respect and experiencing a bad one can do that, but a LEO who's worth his salt pays attention to the details, and can spot them again within seconds of arriving on a scene, to take small bits of info and put them together to form a picture very quickly relying on the events experienced. We do this day in and day out shift after shift for years, often times with the benefit of heightened senses as there is a real possibility of physical danger to include death. You may choose to disregard this skill, but I have seen it save lives. I have had the hair on the back of my neck stand up because the data bites I was witnessing said things were about to go bad, and had it allow me to go home at the end of the shift when I otherwise may not have had I chosen to ignore them. So yes I am confident I can put together an accurate picture of how it went down in that house given the information I have read.

Originally Posted by Sigaba

The president put his feet waist-deep into his mouth and provided his opponents a golden opportunity to undermine his supporters' view of his intelligence, his leadership, his focus, and his commitment to their interests.

Yet they say very little because most people in general are afraid to call the baby ugly, and those in DC and elsewhere are deathly are afraid he will play the race card, which he did anyway again for NO reason.

Originally Posted by Sigaba

Thus far, we've decided to focus more effort on deriding Professor Gates for his meltdown, castigating (yet again) the Ivory Tower, and making the discussion something about race.

Originally Posted by Sigaba

Some of those who argue his arrest had nothing to about race are spending a lot of time talking about race.

We (those who are speaking out against Gates) didn't make this about race, Mr. Gates did the instant he called an officer doing his DUTY a racist. "This is what happens to a black Man in America" How is this statement not a condemnation of all non black people in America, so we're all just a bunch of racists according to Mr. Gates, I'm no psychologist, but I took a little in college, and I think that would be described as transference. If he had been white and refused to give ID and then became verbally abusive and was in turn arrested, the POTUS would have never commented on it, nor would anyone else, THEY MADE THIS ABOUT RACE because THEY have an issue with RACE, and frankly while I understand and accept that there are still white people that are racists, believing and saying that all white people are bigots is no less RACIST than a KKK member spewing their hate filled filth, the only difference is that people like Mr. Gates and our POTUS get away with it because no one calls a spade a spade.

Originally Posted by Sigaba

The question remains: where is all this rage coming from?

Answered this one already, why is it so hard to understand that people are sick of the race card. I know I am, I have never used a racial slur, I am not responsible for slavery, my family came over in the early 1900's and were dirt poor, me and mine haven't kept any, ANY black, white, Hispanic, or any other type of man down, I'm sick of people like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, or Mr. Gates tying to lay the sins of the past on my or any other innocent mans shoulders (which is exactly what happened here).

Originally Posted by Sigaba

Professor Gates behaved immaturely, I agree. Did Sgt Crowley take the high road or did he take the bait?

Sgt Crowley gave Mr. Gates his name, and asked him to calm down repeatedly, it was Mr. Gates who followed Sgt Crowley outside yelling insults about the officers mother, please explain what high road you would have him take?

Originally Posted by Sigaba

Both men had the power to diffuse the situation. Both men decided to keep ratcheting up the pressure.

Again Sgt Crowley tried to diffuse the situation, remember an officers job is to resolve a situation, not to cow tow to the very idiots causing the problems, and he did so, cuffs on placed in squad car, situation diffused within the scope of the law, remember what I said about officer discretion.

Originally Posted by Sigaba

Why did Sgt Crowley decide on the course of actions that he took? W is his department's policy on a civilian's RFI for a badge number? How was he trained to handle an irate civilian wearing a size XXL asshat?

First question: , within the law, his life, his call and that's all that needs to be said. Second question, badge number may or may not mean anything, mine didn't yet many COPS/CSI watching citizens still ask for them, and you know what, if someone asked for it I could give it but it wouldn't mean anything to my or any other supervisor, all they need to make a complaint is an officers name, which Sgt Crowley gave from the accounts I've read. I've had people get bent out of shape when I handed them a card with MY NAME TYPED ON IT, (and that matched the name tag) with IA's number circled on the back, but didn't give my badge number, sound familiar... those darn experiences again. Last question: 10 years of on the job as not just a LEO but also a supervisor pretty well covers the OJT for dealing with Irate people IMO regardless of what ever training he’s had, and I’m sure there is some.

From the Cambridge PD website,

The Cambridge Police Department is committed to the enforcement of laws and preservation of order that protect the rights and property of every person within the City of Cambridge.

http://www.cambridgema.gov/CPD/About...entProfile.cfm

[Sigaba]

Originally Posted by Defender968

Sigaba the studies you believe in so vehemently quote statistics do they not?

The answer to your question is no. I've been rather critical of how historians use statistics for about sixteen years for methodological and professional reasons. History is not a social science.

Originally Posted by Defender968

You may not hold LEOs in very high respect...

This is an assumption to which you've held persistently. MOO, this assumption is unsupported by the "data bytes" I've provided. I'd rather not be held responsible for your inferences.

Originally Posted by Defender968

So yes I am confident I can put together an accurate picture of how it went down in that house given the information I have read.

Again, we disagree on this point. I understand that you want to make this discussion a referendum on your training, your experiences, and your cognitive processes. As politely as I can, and for reasons that I've re-examined by reading and rereading many of your posts, I am opting out of that exercise.

Instead, I'm holding to the view that we who were not there will only know the tip of the iceberg. I regret that my obstinacy may continue to cause you discomfort.

Originally Posted by Defender968

Yet they say very little because most people in general are afraid to call the baby ugly, and those in DC and elsewhere are deathly are afraid he will play the race card, which he did anyway again for NO reason.

We (those who are speaking out against Gates) didn't make this about race, Mr. Gates did the instant he called an officer doing his DUTY a racist. "This is what happens to a black Man in America" How is this statement not a condemnation of all non black people in America, so we're all just a bunch of racists according to Mr. Gates, I'm no psychologist, but I took a little in college, and I think that would be described as transference. If he had been white and refused to give ID and then became verbally abusive and was in turn arrested, the POTUS would have never commented on it, nor would anyone else, THEY MADE THIS ABOUT RACE because THEY have an issue with RACE, and frankly while I understand and accept that there are still white people that are racists, believing and saying that all white people are bigots is no less RACIST than a KKK member spewing their hate filled filth, the only difference is that people like Mr. Gates and our POTUS get away with it because no one calls a spade a spade.

Answered this one already, why is it so hard to understand that people are sick of the race card. I know I am, I have never used a racial slur, I am not responsible for slavery, my family came over in the early 1900's and were dirt poor, me and mine haven't kept any, ANY black, white, Hispanic, or any other type of man down, I'm sick of people like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, or Mr. Gates tying to lay the sins of the past on my or any other innocent mans shoulders (which is exactly what happened here).

I understand and accept that you and I have different views of American history, the dynamic and legacies of American racism, the role of the law in American society, contemporary political and cultural discourse, psychology, collective memory, diversity, and former County of L.A. ADA Marcia Clark. (Call me stubborn. I'm not going to use an interpretation of race relations offered by arguably the most incompetent attorney to practice law in a L.A. court room in recent memory. YMMV.)

Originally Posted by Defender968

Sgt Crowley gave Mr. Gates his name, and asked him to calm down repeatedly, it was Mr. Gates who followed Sgt Crowley outside yelling insults about the officers mother, please explain what high road you would have [had] him take?

Hypotheticals are tricky.

A lesson of the Eisenhower presidency is that one of the the greatest shows of strength is restraint. I do not know if that is what the two officers who responded to a pair of domestic disturbance next door had in mind over the last year. They somehow managed to diffuse these situations without hauling people off to the pokey. (And that was frustrating--these were terrible neighbors.)

Originally Posted by Defender968

...not to [kowtow] to the very idiots...

Again, we must agree to disagree on the nature of Professor Gates and his intellect. I understand that you do not like him and that you do not respect him.

I've not met the man. If I have that opportunity, I'd consider it a privilege. And the first chance I get, I'm asking him some questions he might not like to hear (even as he laughs). All things being equal, I'd rather meet his lawyer. Professor Ogletree moderated a series of discussions on national security affairs in the 1980s and I'd want to pick his brain on those experiences (and get copies of the tapes and transcripts).

Originally Posted by Defender968

Really… are you seriously asking these questions? Badge number may or may not mean the square root of jack, mine didn't yet many COPS/CSI watching citizens still ask for them, and you know what, if someone asked for it I could give it but it wouldn't mean anything to my or any other supervisor, all they need to make a complaint is an officers name, which Sgt Crowley gave from the accounts I've read. ...[S]ound familiar...hmmm there are those darn experiences again. Oh and I think 10 years on the job as not just a cop but also a supervisor pretty well covers the OJT for dealing with Irate people regardless of what ever training he’s had, and I’m sure there is some.

Oh by the way....

With respect, I don't agree that your efforts to sound...how ever it is you're trying to sound in these kinds of comments...are helping me to understand what you're trying to communicate.

We have different takes on a number of aspects related to this issue and on other topics as well. I enjoy some components of the exchange. Others, not so much.

[Defender968]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

MOO, the two factors that have not yet received the attention they merit are class and gender (specifically, the construction of masculinity).

In regards to the former, Professor Gates attempted to lord over the good sergeant with his phone call to an unidentified person to get the Cambridge PD chief involved. He also made comments about retaliation.

In regards to the latter, the sergeant in an unfortunate* interview for WBZ-TV, gave a hint that he was especially bothered by Gates's unconscionable comments about his mother. The sergeant's comments are available here.


_________________________________________
* Unfortunate for two reasons. First, because the sergeant did not detail these comments in his report and thus leaves himself vulnerable to the question "What else did he omit?"

Second, the sergeant indicates that he was "surprised" by the tenor of Gates's outburst but then points out that he worked for Brandeis University's police department. Are we to believe that during his time on that force, he never encountered the mercurial temperament of an academic? (Over the course of several facility planning meetings, I exchanged with the chief of a small college's police department knowing smirks as members of the faculty railed at the notion of having to pay for parking. Indeed, in the parking industry two of three groups of stakeholders one dreads most are medical doctors and professors.)

Sigaba you are killing me. I almost don't even want to bother as clearly you are so biased against LEO's that you cannot IMO make a nonbiased assessment of anything they say or do. I listened to the interview twice, just to make sure I didn't miss anything the first time. What I believe he was trying to say about being surprised again after listening to it twice is that after getting the Harvard ID he was surprised that a professor at a university as esteemed as Harvard would be acting in such a manor. Whether he had dealt with a jackass prof at the Brandeis University is unknown, maybe he isn't a cynic and still believes that people are inherently good, maybe he expects those teaching our children not to be racist asshats, maybe he just expects a man in a position of authority at a Ivy league institution to behave like a grown man not like a punk on the street corner. In any case weather he dealt with a jackass prof in the past really has no real bearing, can he not be surprised by bad behavior?

In terms of the interview that you call unfortunate, I did not perceive him to be overly bothered by the comments, nor did I hear him say anything that countered his report, do you expect him to have put word for word every single thing that was said in a report? Can you recall verbatim every conversation you have 20 minutes after having it, especially when one party is yelling at you? Do you even know what an arrest report is for? It must give the pertinent details of an incident but is not and cannot be a word for word accounting of what happened, it must articulate in sufficient detail the situation, and the elements of the crime for which the suspect was arrested and Sgt Crowley did that, what exactly are you implying that he left out?

Again after watching the interview twice I saw a LEO who was unrepentant because in his opinion and mine he acted appropriately for the situation at hand, the only unfortunate event here is that the Cambridge PD caved to political expediency and failed to follow through on the arrest which places Sgt Crowley in a predicament because it opens up the faulty logic that the arrest was not justified and thus he may be subject to a lawsuit for acting within the law and his authority in LEGALY arresting Mr. Gates for a crime that it would appear based on the accounting of 3 LEO’s that he committed.

[abc_123]

There, I went and did it. The mean dog avatar came back out.

This thread has grown beyond stupid. Common sense no longer applies in this country.

The same shit-stirring that got Prof. Idiot arrested is going on in this thread. Just like I think that Idiot should've gotten a beat-stick upside his melon...If I had a PS.com badge (and I don[t), I'd wade into this thread swinging.

Someone would be going nite-nite.

[Peregrino]

Since I like GSDs and don't want to see anyone get bit (unnecessarilly) it's time to close this discussion. For those of you who insist on turning a dead horse into rotten hamburger, please take it to PMs.

[The Reaper]

Well, I have had about all of it that I am going to. You guys are making my head hurt.

I asked you guys to hold the emotions down, and discuss the facts, and it would appear that not everyone can do that without making assumptions and implications about the other parties to the discussion.

Professor Gates is a shithead. Plain and simple. I saw a speech he delivered, it would appear that he should be close friends with Reverend Wright, as they seem to share quite a few views, all involving white racism and the evil whitey keeping them down.

I do not think that Officer Crowley overreacted, if the reports to date are correct. If you follow a LEO out of your house into a public area, and continue being verbally abusive, you are a dumbass, and should be arrested. I know some asshole cops who are basically the grade school bullies with a gun and a badge, and he does not sound like one of them to me.

The POTUS opened his mouth and stuck his foot in, in a matter where he did not, as he admitted, have all of the facts, but did state his unrehearsed, unpolled, unteleprompted opinion, dredging up and channeling an old Reverend Wright sermon, but without considering the target audience. He is now in the damage control mode, and the two protagonists are being invited to the WH to get the POTUS' foot out and to try and fix his faux pas, not to do them any good personally.

Now, having stated my opinion, I do not think that Sigaba was being an apologist, or anti-LEO. He was asking some hard questions and was stating his opinion, as is his style. Defender, you seem pretty thin-skinned about this and are trying to argue with someone who is not arguing with you. I believe that there is a civil response being given in an opportunity to better understand your logic. Do not fall into the converse of blaming everything on LEO by trying to portray all cops as perfect and omniscient. It just ain't so. Also, your arguments seem to suffer from a tone of condescention and attitude. Remember the rule. Keep it polite and professional.

I think that this thread is best closed till we can figure out if there is any merit to discussing it further on a board dedicated to QPs. If it is reopened, it will be without any excessive arguments or further personal attacks on other board members.

Lets see how this goes when the facts and the investigation are revealed.

That's all for now. Move along people, nothing to see here....

TR

[Richard]

And so it goes...

Richard

Harvard Professor, Officer 'Missed Opportunities' To Ease Clash
USAToday, 30 June 2010

Six to eight seconds into their chance encounter last year, a Cambridge, Mass., police sergeant and a prominent black Harvard professor became hardened adversaries who did not recognize "multiple opportunities" to ease a confrontation that triggered a national debate on racial profiling.

A review of the July 16 incident, which later landed both men at the White House for a meeting with President Obama, concluded Wednesday that Sgt. James Crowley and Professor Henry Louis Gates were equally at fault for escalating a routine police call that ended in Gates' arrest.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...hooModule_News

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Richard

And so it goes...

Richard

Harvard Professor, Officer 'Missed Opportunities' To Ease Clash
USAToday, 30 June 2010

Six to eight seconds into their chance encounter last year, a Cambridge, Mass., police sergeant and a prominent black Harvard professor became hardened adversaries who did not recognize "multiple opportunities" to ease a confrontation that triggered a national debate on racial profiling.

A review of the July 16 incident, which later landed both men at the White House for a meeting with President Obama, concluded Wednesday that Sgt. James Crowley and Professor Henry Louis Gates were equally at fault for escalating a routine police call that ended in Gates' arrest.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...hooModule_News

I don't agree...... and I think that article is pure bullshit.

There's a few in our society that you do not want to escalate an issue and that short list includes individuals with guns.....morons & idiots escalate issues with armed individuals, be it cop or bad guy.

I have little doubt the professor has a chip on his shoulder the size of a redwood tree and thought he would take it out on the police officer, didn't work in this case.

I also have little doubt that had it been a white guy on the professors front porch that Sgt. James Crowley would have done the same thing had the individual decided to "esclate" the issue.