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Old 08-28-2004, 09:16   #16
NousDefionsDoc
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You guys know what pisses me off about this whole deal? When I was in the 82nd and later when I got to Group, I had a lot of guys in the Chain of Command and friends that had been in Vietnam, some of them SOG guys, etc that saw a LOT of combat.

Yet here, once again, we have the horrified vet (Kerry) speaking out on behalf of the troops in an immoral war. He was in country 4 months and never missed a duty day because of wounds!

Our old SGM (RIP Pete), spent multiple tours over there. I asked him once "Why did you keep going back when you didn't have to?" He said "When you go to yours, where ever it is, come back and we'll talk." Well, Panama wasn't anything like Vietnam, but after it, I went back to see him and he just smiled. Because I knew the answer. I'm sure Colonel Rowe had nightmares, but I never heard of him complaining. I heard he even laughed at the little joke they played on him when he first showed up at his office at SERE. Fast Eddie talked to us about it a lot, to help us learn.

I never knew anyone, NOT ONE, of those guys to carry on about it the way guys like Kerry do. Of course they had no reason to share anything with a snot-nosed cherry that wasn't there, but still.

I read somewhere once that there are like 12-14 support troops for every trigger puller. Yet the 12-14 are the ones that seem to do all the complaining. I think a lot of it is "Hey! I unloaded trucks, but I was there too!" Since I doubt many people buy books about unloading trucks.

Like the man said, "War is hell, but combat is a bitch." Just seems to me that a lot of the guys that didn't see much combat do most of the bitchin'.

I'm done now.
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.

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Old 08-28-2004, 09:51   #17
The Reaper
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Well said, NDD.

I suspect that Conduct Unbecoming and Contemptuous Speech could be added to the list, if not UA for dropping out before completing his term.

TR
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Old 08-28-2004, 09:57   #18
CPTAUSRET
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Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
You guys know what pisses me off about this whole deal? When I was in the 82nd and later when I got to Group, I had a lot of guys in the Chain of Command and friends that had been in Vietnam, some of them SOG guys, etc that saw a LOT of combat.


Our old SGM (RIP Pete), spent multiple tours over there. I asked him once "Why did you keep going back when you didn't have to?" He said "When you go to yours, where ever it is, come back and we'll talk." Well, Panama wasn't anything like Vietnam, but after it, I went back to see him and he just smiled. Because I knew the answer. I'm sure Colonel Rowe had nightmares, but I never heard of him complaining. I heard he even laughed at the little joke they played on him when he first showed up at his office at SERE. Fast Eddie talked to us about it a lot, to help us learn.

I never knew anyone, NOT ONE, of those guys to carry on about it the way guys like Kerry do.


Like the man said, "War is hell, but combat is a bitch." Just seems to me that a lot of the guys that didn't see much combat do most of the bitchin'.

I'm done now.


I kept going back, because I knew I was needed to do a job which I figured I was uniquely qualified for (don't know why I figured I was the best gun pilot out there, but I did), I also figured that every NVA/VC I planted was one more who was not going to kill another young American serving their country.

Terry
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Old 08-28-2004, 10:16   #19
NousDefionsDoc
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Roger that Cap. You are another good example. Thank you for your service.
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.

Still want to quit?
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Old 08-28-2004, 22:42   #20
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http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect...ws-lips28.html

The house of cards is tumbling.
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Old 08-28-2004, 22:50   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Airbornelawyer
The "V" is likely a clerical error. I would not waste time on it.
Maybe so, but DOD regulation require that a DD214 not have any corrections or overstrikes. Kerry's does. Something is not right about that document, and the additional information regarding Secretary Lehman and the Silver Star citation add to the questions regarding his "records".
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Old 08-29-2004, 20:12   #22
Airbornelawyer
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Quote:
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Why do you think it's unconstitutional? I haven't done any research, but my instinct is that there should be no problem. Certainly the policy of the First Amendment is not impaired by the statute, and this power is one quite clearly given to the government.

As noted, the Logan Act has never resulted in a conviction, much less an appeal, so its constitutionality has not been tested. There are at least two prongs for attack - the First Amendment and the Sixth Amendment.

In Waldron v. British Petroleum Co., a federal district court noted with respect to a Logan Act claim, "the existence of a doubtful question with regard to the constitutionality of that statute under the Sixth Amendment. That doubt is engendered by the statute's use of the vague and indefinite terms, 'defeat' and 'measures.' Neither of these words is an abstraction of common certainty or possesses a definite statutory or judicial definition. Since, however, there are other grounds for disposing of this motion, it is not necessary to decide the constitutional question." 231 F. Supp. 72 (S.D.N.Y. 1964) (internal citations omitted).

"Void for vagueness" doctrine is also applied in First Amendment cases (though I believe there we are talking about void for vagueness under the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment), to which may be added overbreadth doctrine. Section 953 is a restriction on "any correspondence or intercourse" (emphasis added). The fact that the speech at issue is political speech puts it in a rather narrow inner ring of First Amendment protection, where a higher standard is applied than for, say, commercial speech.

There is an open issue, however, which is the extent to which the First Amendment covers speech outside the United States. The extraterritorial application of the First Amendment is untested by the Supreme Court. In Haig v. Agee (453 U.S. 280 (1981)), the Court ruled that the conduct at issue - revealing the names of CIA covert agents - was not protected speech, so the First Amendment did not apply to the revocation of Agee's passport. It did not directly address the extraterritorial application of the First Amendment. Several district court cases, have, however, with most tending toward applying the Bill of Rights to conduct overseas.

Agee's action was held to be unprotected speech under the national security limitation expressed Near v. Minnesota ex rel. Olson (283 U.S. 697 (1931)). The Near doctrine is that there be proof that the activity "must inevitably, directly, and immediately cause the occurrence of an event kindred to imperiling the safety of a transport already at sea." This is akin to the so-called "clear and present danger" test.

While it is likely that the national security exception is not broad enough to save the statute on general terms, it is possible that a narrower statute applicable to military personnel or government officials would be constitutional. The exception to the First Amendment which permits restrictions on political activities of soldiers is long-recognized. Though not absolute, it likely would be applicable to activities to influence foreign policy by a serving soldier. In United States v. Howe (17 USCMA 165, 37 CMR 429 (1967)), the Court of Military Appeals upheld the conviction for conduct unbecoming of a lieutenant who had participated in civilian clothes in a demonstration. In Culver v. Secretary of the Air Force (559 F.2d 622 (D.C.Cir.1977)), the DC Circuit Court upheld an Air Force regulation that prohibited an Air Force member from participating in a demonstration in a foreign country.

2LT Howe was a Reserve officer, but he was on active duty at the time, so he was subject to the UCMJ. Unfortunately, Kerry, at the time of his VVAW activities, was not. So even this military restriction would not cover Kerry. As noted, were he subject to the UCMJ at the time, there are at least 10 punitive articles under which he might have been chargeable:

Article 88. Contempt toward officials
Article 94. Mutiny or sedition
Article 104. Aiding the enemy
Article 107. False official statements
Article 108. Military property of United States--Loss, damage, destruction, or wrongful disposition (those medals he threw)
Article 115. Malingering
Article 116. Riot or breach of peace
Article 117. Provoking speeches or gestures
Article 133. Conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman.
Article 134. General Article.

Add Article 81, Conspiracy, for most of these. And if he was in fact obligated to report to a Reserve unit, but did not (the record is vague on this), there would be the appropriate applicable Article 85, 86 or 87 violation.

Article 134 covers actions prejudicial to good order and discipline not covered by another punitive article. There are several possible Article 134 violations, including "disloyal statements". In his Senate testimony and other VVAW statements, Kerry claims to have not only heard about, but witnessed atrocities. If he was lying, then Art. 107 might apply, but if he was telling the truth, and never reported them when he was on active duty, then he would be chargeable with another Article 134 violation, misprision of a serious offense. The misprision would have occurred while then-LT(jg) Kerry was subject to the UCMJ, but the statute of limitations ran out long ago.
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Old 08-29-2004, 21:47   #23
NousDefionsDoc
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Anybody else scared of running into AL in a courtroom?
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Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimal food or water, in austere conditions, training day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon and he made his web gear. He doesn't worry about what workout to do - his ruck weighs what it weighs, his runs end when the enemy stops chasing him. This True Believer is not concerned about 'how hard it is;' he knows either he wins or dies. He doesn't go home at 17:00, he is home.
He knows only The Cause.

Still want to quit?
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Old 08-29-2004, 21:51   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Airbornelawyer
And if he was in fact obligated to report to a Reserve unit, but did not (the record is vague on this), there would be the appropriate applicable Article 85, 86 or 87 violation.
I think this may be why he refuses to release his records.

I hope someone has a FOIA suit underway right now to get them.

TR
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - President Theodore Roosevelt, 1910

De Oppresso Liber 01/20/2025
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Old 08-30-2004, 07:19   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Anybody else scared of running into AL in a courtroom?
I haven't worried about the courtroom yet, still being careful of not getting tangled up with him here.
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