The Invasion of Japan

[abc_123]

My father in law fought with the 158th RCT in the P.I. And was staged for the invasion, but instead was part of the occupation army.

If I remember correctly the information that he gave me on the invasion plans (compiled and distributed by someone in his regimental association and may be of the same primary source that WM referenced) the 158th RCT was expected to be effective for only a few days and the casualties were expected by the planners to be north of 80%.

My father in law is a born-again christian who lives the talk but you won't ever hear that old man question us nuking the japs. There is no doubt in his mind that the only reason that he lived to see 20yrs old was those two bombs.

[deanwells]

Both of my grandfathers would have been involved. Great Post!!!

DW

[x-factor]

If you accept that the moral purpose of war is to save lives (either physically or from oppression in whatever form), then I don't see how anyone who has the historical facts can question whether or not the first atomic bomb was the morally correct thing to do. Even counting those lost to radiation poisoning, without question Japanese lives were saved by ending the war as expeditiously as possible.

The idea that you can't sympathize with the long-term innocent victims of radiation without disavowing the act entirely is simple-minded.

That said, I think it is fair to question the morality of the second A-bomb. From what I've seen, there is a historical case to be made that the Japanese were ready to surrender after Hiroshima with their only condition being that they got to keep the Emperor (which of course they eventually did and to the benefit of democratization too).

[abc_123]

They got what they (collectively) deserved and had coming to them since they first attacked Pearl Harbor, then Bataan, and Wake Island.

I guess they should have removed that condition to their surrender a little quicker.

[Hipshot]

In the summer of 1945, the War Department ordered some 400,000 Purple Heart medals - the expected number of casualties during the invasion of Japan. The Purple Hearts being awarded today for wounds in Iraq and A'stan are coming out of that 1945 order!

[kgoerz]

Originally Posted by abc_123

They got what they (collectively) deserved and had coming to them since they first attacked Pearl Harbor, then Bataan, and Wake Island.

I guess they should have removed that condition to their surrender a little quicker.

Even the second Bomb if not more were deserved. Because people being tired of the war when it finally ended. Most of the War criminals got away. When word spread of what the first Bomb did. One entire camps of POW'S in Japan were beheaded, with countless separate incidents. Strange how their society is viewed as peaceful today.

[abc_123]

kgoerz,

IMO, to be more accurate, the japanese war crimminals did not really get away. They were never really pursued with the same vigor as in the european theater. From what I understand, Gen MacArthur was not a proponent of war-crimes trials and the trials that were conducted in the Pacific were the absolute minimum that was politically acceptable. MacArthur's primary interests were in stability during the occupation and setting the conditions for the creation of a new Japanese government that could exist peacefully going forward.

As far as their society being peace-loving today... IMO you can chalk that up to the grade A, made in the USA, industrial strength ass whipping that we put on them in WWII followed by a good ole' American occupation army.

[kgoerz]

Originally Posted by abc_123

kgoerz,

IMO, to be more accurate, the japanese war crimminals did not really get away. They were never really pursued with the same vigor as in the european theater. From what I understand, Gen MacArthur was not a proponent of war-crimes trials and the trials that were conducted in the Pacific were the absolute minimum that was politically acceptable. MacArthur's primary interests were in stability during the occupation and setting the conditions for the creation of a new Japanese government that could exist peacefully going forward.

As far as their society being peace-loving today... IMO you can chalk that up to the grade A, made in the USA, industrial strength ass whipping that we put on them in WWII followed by a good ole' American occupation army.

You probably read the same History Books I did. They weren't even pursued is right. There were a couple that served a few years. MacArthur and others just had the, lets move on now attitude.
The guest speaker at my SEAR Graduation was a POW in Japan. He started getting more and more angry as he spoke. By the end he was on a rant about Japan. After what he told us, he had every right. Great guy, cant remember his name.
Everyone was a little shocked afterwords, room was silent. Guy next to me whispered to me "I bet he doesn't drive a Jap Car"

[jatx]

This has been a very interesting and informative thread.

I believe that the source of the original post was an article in the Omaha World Herald dated November 1987. I did the search because I wanted to pass this along to other people, but not without attribution.

A good link to follow is http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro.../downfall.html, which includes maps and bibliographical references for those interested in digging deeper.

[Razor]

Having recently read "Flyboys", James Bradley's sequel to "Flags of Our Fathers", I'm no longer convinced that the two atomic bombs were the main cause of Japan's surrender. While I've yet to research his listed sources, he cites a tremendous number of casualties and material destruction caused by the massive fire-bombing campaign against the main island orchestrated by GEN LeMay. The number of Japanese dead resulting from the atomic bombings pale in comparison to the accumulated casualties the resulted from dropping napalm over a period of a few months. During the bombing of Tokyo on 9 Mar 45 alone, there were an estimated 90-100,000 killed. The fire-bombing campaign reportedly destroyed 178 square miles of Japanese cities, killed an estimated 400,000, and injured another 500,000 overall. Combine this massive destruction with the Soviet invasion of Manchuria and even the emporer saw the futility in continuing to fight.

On a different tack, I hadn't realized the degree of cannibalism the Japanese army practiced in China and against US POWs.

[HOLLiS]

Razor, my understanding was the same, that the fire bombings of Tokyo cause much more casualties. I think the coincidence of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the factor of the follow up surrender of Japan leads many to believe the bombs caused Japan into recapitulating. I believe there are other issues that lead to the Japanese surrender. I read once that some Japanese officer planned a mutiny, to keep the war going. The mutiny failed. Internally Japan may have been already heading to seek terms. I don't think the Allies knew exactly that Japan was up to. The Invasion of Okinawa and the high suicide among Okinawans lead many to believe Japan was not going to surrender at any cost. That something big was needed to force Japan to surrender. An invasion of Japan would have brought the deaths of millions.

When I was a kid, I remember Dad's friends discussing the possible invasion of Japan and how costly in allies lives it might have been. Dad was USN '37 - '57. He was in the China fleet at the out break of the war. I bring this up because we have two views of the time, the Allies and Japanese. The Japanese could have been going to seek terms of surrender but the Allies were probably clueless to this fact. Also the deceptions the Japanese played prior to the bombing of Pearl Harbor, IMHO, would have made the Allies leery of any the Japanese actions to seek peace as a some sort of ploy to gain a tactical advantage.

[x-factor]

The Soviet invasion of Manchuria shouldn't be overlooked either as a motivator.

Still, its my understanding that, even though the fire bombing did far more damage, it was the psychological shock of the Hiroshima bomb that prompted the Emperor to become involved and push the military to accept the allied surrender ultimatum.

[frostfire]

McNamara Fog of War
(copy and paste)youtube.com/watch?v=er2xCn3_QcQ

The audio & visual of the documentary definitely appeal to pathos, and there are plenty of reoccuring edits. Nevertheless, I've discovered the average Joes seem to agree with McNamara sentiment. IMHO, documentary like this among many others easily sway the general public to believeing it's not OK to be a winner anymore and that their own country is the ultimate evil.

[hunteran]

In addition to all the things mentioned already there is yet another good thing about using the bombs (in hindsight). If we had decided to invade our invasion fleet would have been hit by the massive typhoon that swept through the area in October of 1945. Anyone who wants to read more about it can do so here. http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq102-6.htm