Marines Pose with SS Flag

[Paslode]

I understand the issue these Marines sporting symbols like Runes or the Totenkopf symbols. But considering Hitler and the Nazi's were statistically out performed by the likes of Mao Ze Dong and Josef Stalin, and no less heinous that Hideki Tojo and Japan I question the motivation of the now Holocaust Expert.

Would the Holocaust Expert have blinked an eye if the flag symbolized Mao, Stalin, Tojo, Pol Pot, Che or any other of the cadre of maniacs of the 20th Century?


SS Rune, MS13, KKK or Black Power Fist tattoos? Are any more acceptable than another?

[John_Chrichton]

Originally Posted by Paslode

Would the Holocaust Expert have blinked an eye if the flag symbolized Mao, Stalin, Tojo, Pol Pot, Che or any other of the cadre of maniacs of the 20th Century?

I don't know, but ask Anita Dunn!

[Mr Furious]

We know the symbol and recognize it because we’re ancient and we’re seeing this through our lens. Everyone recognizes a swastika and it’s association because that is what is universally reinforced with Nazi’s and their ideology. That SS symbol is not reinforced and in people’s faces today. Is that specific symbol taught in HS before these guys enlist? (Seriously, I’m asking) It wasn’t for me, and I’m old and retired. Those who served in Vietnam were 20 years removed from that regime and it was a bit more fresh in the minds. That would be like those serving today remembering the symbols and associations from the 1st Gulf War, 20 years ago. Flip the coin from the dark side to the good side and ask a young guy what the patch of the OSS looked like without Googling it. I doubt you’ll get a correct answer from most. When I see someone sporting the confederate colors I assume they are proud of their Southern heritage, not that they want to reinstitute human slavery. Of course it can also in context be used as a symbol of hate. Why are we not spinning up about all the different brands or logos that use the sig rune? Runes were around long before the SS. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient...-in-runes.html

Leadership always needs to step up, set the example, and be accountable. That’s not even a question. I just don't think they did this with the intention of being anti-Semitic and associating themselves with the SS. I was on a deployment where a guy from NSWU-2 was a very good tattoo artist and brought a kit with him. A bunch of team and support guys all got black tattoos depicting the head of Anubis. It was a company espirit de corps and bonding thing, and not some maligned intent or devotion to the pharaohs and ancient persecutors of the Israelites. It had nothing to do with failed leadership. Yes, I think this whole thing is blown way out of proportion and the MSM will get their mileage from it while they can.

[Paslode]

Not to diminish the atrocities of the Nazi's but it is said that History belongs to the victors, and with that in mind General Curtis Lemay once said, that had the U.S. lost the war, he fully expected to be tried for war crimes.

[Brian1/75]

I think the key to this is cultural context. For instance, if I go to an Asian country swastikas are common place. It has completely different meaning. On the other hand, the Japanese Rising Sun here is kind of a 'cool' little thing. I've seen guys paint parts of their Japanese cars in this. But if I was in Korea, this would be a heinous symbol identified with years of imperial conquest and war crimes. At the same time the SS symbol in most Western culture is a symbol of heinous war crimes and white supremacist.

I'm also surprise to see so many throw out the idea that enlisted men are ignorant. I could of flown this flag in the cages at 1/75 and I guarantee at least half my platoon of young ignorant enlisted men would have called me on it. I can guarantee my entire platoon has seen Band of Brothers, and 90% of them have seen American History X and likely these Scout-Snipers have as well. No, that guy was not a Scout-Sniper, he was a white supremacist. This isn't about history. You guys might be ancient, but these symbols are part of popular culture.

Comparing the SS symbol to the Jolly Roger makes no sense. People that had to worry about that flag are no longer among the living. Pirates have been romanticized. So have Southern 'rebels.' Again cultural context. The swastika and the SS are still symbols of evil in our culture. I guarantee these men knew what it meant. Did they care? No. Should they be punished? Probably not if it's been ingrained in Scout-Sniper culture for 30 years. But these guys are still plain stupid for flying it and I am kind of about punishing stupidity. Maybe in a 100 years we can start rocking SS symbols, but it's too soon.

[hoot72]

Originally Posted by Brian1/75

I think the key to this is cultural context. For instance, if I go to an Asian country swastikas are common place.

Sorry, I beg to differ. Which asian countries specifically, please?

[Box]

Since this "SS" flag has obviously been used as a symbol of USMC Scout Snipers for 30 years, I find myself wondering, why NOW, do we become horrified that these terrible Marines dare pose in front of a flag symbolizing the Nazi culture? Cultural context does not even come close to defending it in my humble opinion either. Those are American Marines, not Asian Marines. A swastika, the rising sun, or a pointy white hood might mean a hundred different things in obscure parts of the globe...
...Americans know the meaning that those symbols presently reflect.

However, where was the outcry every time such a picture like this has been taken in the last thirty years? Is this REALLY the first picture that shos scout snipers in front of such a flag? Are we just now noticing that the Marines have insidiously cultured a three decade long plot to bring acceptance of Nazi culture into the mainstream under the cover of being 'scout Snipers?

Or... have we always noticed that it was a Nazi symbol, and just didn't care? Is it because now that the Marines have been filmed urinating on dead savages, we feel morally repulsed and obligated to finally say something about the Nazi symbol on the scout sniper flag?

I don't know the right answer. I know how I would deal with it in my own unit and I wont be discussing that in this forum. I like the comment made in an earlier post - some folks will look at a picture like this and go "these dirt bags haven't shaved, and look at this punk with his hands in his pocket"
...and completely gloss over the "SS" right in the center of the photo. Is that the problem or is that just another symptom of a bigger problem?

What does that say about our current leadership climate? Are we really looking at the root cause of the problem? Are we leading troops and administering discipline based on sound bytes and video clips that make to MSNBC or the cover of the NY Times? I hope not. I hope we are treating our Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Airmen based on simple standards of good order and discipline. Media based leadership is going to bite us all in the ass if we aren't careful.

Metaphorically, lets apply medicine to the situation... if this picture was a "cough" does it just need cough medicine or should we step back and find out what disease process is causing the cough?

...maybe ten years of Afghani dust is just irritating the throat?
...maybe the cough is a symptom of the flu?
...maybe the cough is because there is a full blown case of TB

Robitussin ain't gonna cure tuberculosis.

Again, we like to hide behind the "ten years of combat" however, there is no way I can be convinced that every Marine in that picture has spent the last ten years in combat. A few of them look like they may have even gone to a high school prom sometime in the last five years.
Ten Years in combat my ass. The photo was deliberate. Maybe they fully understood, maybe there were a few of them that really did not understand the implications... after all, its the scout sniper flag.

So... who is at fault? The platoon leader, the photographer, the guy that allowed the photo to fall into the hands of the media?
...or is it something that EVERYONE in uniform needs to work on?

Again, I dont know the real answer, I just know that things don't look right to me.

[steel71]

Originally Posted by hoot72

Sorry, I beg to differ. Which asian countries specifically, please?

You don't have to go to Asia, the Finnish Air Force uses it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trainin...nish_Air_Force

And here too, Coronado, Ca.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/27/us/27swastika.html

Personally, I would be more upset over the hammer and sickle. I'm still waiting for the Commie version of the Nuremberg Trials to commence.

[Brian1/75]

Originally Posted by hoot72

Sorry, I beg to differ. Which asian countries specifically, please?

It's a Hindu/Buddhist symbol. I've seen it throughout China and Korea and I'm sure it can be found in India. Depending where you are you might not. For instance, I doubt Japan has it since they're traditional religion is Shintoism. Even then you have immigrants that may have brought it to Japan.

Ex. http://www.swastika-info.com/images/...ka-society.jpg
Here's a place in Malaysia. These are not neo-nazi's and the symbol has completely different meaning. I should say that when I was talking about cultural context, I was not defending these Marines. I was attacking them. Swastikas and SS symbols are not okay in our culture. And no they are not ancient or historic, it currently has meaning.

[orion5]

Originally Posted by Brian1/75

It's a Hindu/Buddhist symbol. I've seen it throughout China and Korea and I'm sure it can be found in India.

Agree. I've seen swastikas throughout the Buddhist parts of Malaysia, Thailand and China. The first time I saw one it freaked me out because it was a sign about 20' square on an old house that had been converted to a Buddhist community center.

I asked a local to explain it. Apparently it symbolizes good luck and the Buddha's heart. The word "swastika" is derived from the Sanskrit "svasti", meaning "all is well." They've used it for thousands of years and aren't going to stop because the Germans bastardized it.

But even so, I would be uncomfortable if our American military adopted the swastika to promote good luck and happiness, just because its original meaning in Asia was positive. I agree we shouldn't be using the SS as a logo/motivation either.

Count me among the ignorant who did not know what the "SS" symbol meant. I was good in math & science, not so much in history. If I was taught this, I don't remember it. I do remember the swastika. I can see how some of the guys didn't know the meaning, but I don't buy that their entire group or leadership chain didn't know.

[hoot72]

Originally Posted by Brian1/75

It's a Hindu/Buddhist symbol. I've seen it throughout China and Korea and I'm sure it can be found in India. Depending where you are you might not. For instance, I doubt Japan has it since they're traditional religion is Shintoism. Even then you have immigrants that may have brought it to Japan.

Ex. http://www.swastika-info.com/images/...ka-society.jpg
Here's a place in Malaysia. These are not neo-nazi's and the symbol has completely different meaning. I should say that when I was talking about cultural context, I was not defending these Marines. I was attacking them. Swastikas and SS symbols are not okay in our culture. And no they are not ancient or historic, it currently has meaning.

It is not a common sight to find the logo used in asia, bar Korea and maybe certain parts of China and India. Otherwise, its never really seen though.

Just my 20 cents.

[Marauder06]

Originally Posted by hoot72

Sorry, I beg to differ. Which asian countries specifically, please?

I saw the "reverse swastika" (not the Nazi swastika, the Buddhist emblem) a lot in the Republic of Korea. That might be what he's talking about. I know they're not the same thing, but they look a lot a like. http://www.religionfacts.com/buddhis...s/swastika.htm



It's apparently also a common symbol in Hinduism: http://www.hindubooks.org/sudheer_bi...ory/omkar.html

[Sigaba]

MOO posts #9 and #39 by QP Longrange1947 greatly undermine arguments that the use of the symbol is only about the morale of the Marines' sniper community and is therefore merely a well-intended mistake that can be explained simply by the phrase "they did not know."

[bubblehead]

Originally Posted by Sigaba

"they did not know."

So the SNCOs and entire leadership did not know? Or they knew and allowed the use of said flag?

[akv]

Originally Posted by hoot72

Sorry, I beg to differ. Which asian countries specifically, please?

If you have Hindu friends swastikas are all over the place. They appear on religious images and holy Sanskrit texts, Swastikas were a religious symbol of "well being' thousands of years before the Nazis. This can now unfortunately lead to misunderstandings. Swastika itself is an ancient Sanskrit word. The Aryans were tribes in what is now northern India. Hitler was obsessed with Aryans legend, specifically the stories of lighter skinned peoples conquering darker skinned people with superior technology, and he obviously twisted this mythology/heraldry for his nefarious views.

None of this has to do with SS runes, they are what they are.