Should Airports Use "Smart Screening"?

Originally Posted by peshguy

Hell yes we should be using these scanners. The scanner can detect drugs, bombs and bundles of money. The scanners require little raining and can be set to record which operator was on duty when passenger xyz went through. No ethnic profiling, just scan every single passenger and stop all the other stupid (useless) crap that TSA makes us do. Start with international flights then transition to domestic fights. The more of these things that are used the cheaper they will become. If the price drops enough they can be used in prisons, jails and courthouses.

I don't know about you, but I have a Constutionally garunteed right to privacy. I don't intend on giving it up. This smacks of pervasive fear. As long as we live in fear, they have won. If you think that TSA will be not saving stuff, you are naive.
I might as well just strip on the sidewalk and then enter the terminal.

Tell me just whom is going to pay for all this ultra expensive equipment?
Dogs are cheaper, and better and less invasive.

Tell me do you want your wife to be viewed by some stranger?
AM

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by Brush Okie

What they should be using is dogs.

Originally Posted by armymom1228

Dogs are cheaper, and better and less invasive.

Let's see. The latest t-wannabe hid the goodies in his underwear. Where exactly, I really don't want to know, but I can see it now: "Alright Sir/Ma'am, spread it and let the dog sniff the "area"

[happyg]

As someone that use to work for the TSA I believe comedian Lewis Black summed up airport security best with this stand up act.

http://www.last.fm/music/Lewis+Black...rity?autostart

Originally Posted by frostfire

Let's see. The latest t-wannabe hid the goodies in his underwear. Where exactly, I really don't want to know, but I can see it now: "Alright Sir/Ma'am, spread it and let the dog sniff the "area"

CNN was showing the offending garment all day yesterday.

Since I am going to soon be handing over my undies to the nice TSA guy, I guess I need to go visit Vicky's Secret and get something less granny panty eh?

AM

[craigepo]

"granny panty"
Armymom, I was wanting to have a serious conversation, but now I can't get granny panties out of my mind. Big ones, like small parachutes.

"Scanners won't work. Neither will dogs."
I would have to respectfully disagree with the notion that dogs wouldn't work in this situation. We used military dogs some in Kosovo, and they worked well. Additionally, a friend of mine works bloodhounds for the missouri department of corrections---I have heard some amazing stories about these dogs. Also, I just get back from working my bird dogs, two german shorthaired pointers. Like many hunting breeds, these dogs have been bred to improve many qualities, including their sense of smell, for centuries. On a good day, these dogs can find where a quail was hours ago, track it down, point it, and not move until I get there.(a couple of weeks ago they pointed and fought a skunk, but that story will have to wait).
In Missouri, the highway patrol used to set up drug interdiction checkpoints on the interstates. They would walk drug dogs by the stopped vehicles. The dogs' noses were sensitive enough to detect drugs by walking close to the vehicles. As to whether those dogs' noses are sensitive enough to detect explosives in a terrorist's rectum, I will let somebody else determine.

[nmap]

Originally Posted by craigepo

We used military dogs some in Kosovo, and they worked well.

I have heard it said that one should always respect the views of those who have real-world experience in an area. Thank you for your insights.

[dr. mabuse]

Someone on this forum that has experience with flying in and out of Israel update me please.

El Al seems to have a pretty good record.

Specifically, how do they manage it and is it scalable?

[brown77]

Originally Posted by dr. mabuse

Someone on this forum that has experience with flying in and out of Israel update me please.

Why? Are you taking notes for the TSA or something?

Seeing as you asked, this article sums it up pretty well:

While North America's airports groan under the weight of another sea-change in security protocols, one word keeps popping out of the mouths of experts: Israelification.

That is, how can we make our airports more like Israel's, which deal with far greater terror threat with far less inconvenience.

"It is mindboggling for us Israelis to look at what happens in North America, because we went through this 50 years ago," said Rafi Sela, the president of AR Challenges, a global transportation security consultancy. He's worked with the RCMP, the U.S. Navy Seals and airports around the world.

"Israelis, unlike Canadians and Americans, don't take s--- from anybody. When the security agency in Israel (the ISA) started to tighten security and we had to wait in line for — not for hours — but 30 or 40 minutes, all hell broke loose here. We said, 'We're not going to do this. You're going to find a way that will take care of security without touching the efficiency of the airport."

That, in a nutshell is "Israelification" - a system that protects life and limb without annoying you to death.

Despite facing dozens of potential threats each day, the security set-up at Israel's largest hub, Tel Aviv's Ben Gurion Airport, has not been breached since 2002, when a passenger mistakenly carried a handgun onto a flight. How do they manage that?

"The first thing you do is to look at who is coming into your airport," said Sela.

The first layer of actual security that greets travellers at Tel Aviv's Ben Gurion International Airport is a roadside check. All drivers are stopped and asked two questions: How are you? Where are you coming from?

"Two benign questions. The questions aren't important. The way people act when they answer them is," Sela said.

Officers are looking for nervousness or other signs of "distress" — behavioural profiling. Sela rejects the argument that profiling is discriminatory.

"The word 'profiling' is a political invention by people who don't want to do security," he said. "To us, it doesn't matter if he's black, white, young or old. It's just his behaviour. So what kind of privacy am I really stepping on when I'm doing this?"

Once you've parked your car or gotten off your bus, you pass through the second and third security perimeters.

Armed guards outside the terminal are trained to observe passengers as they move toward the doors, again looking for odd behaviour. At Ben Gurion's half-dozen entrances, another layer of security are watching. At this point, some travellers will be randomly taken aside, and their person and their luggage run through a magnometer.

"This is to see that you don't have heavy metals on you or something that looks suspicious," said Sela.

You are now in the terminal. As you approach your airline check-in desk, a trained interviewer takes your passport and ticket. They ask a series of questions: Who packed your luggage? Has it left your side?

"The whole time, they are looking into your eyes — which is very embarrassing. But this is one of the ways they figure out if you are suspicious or not. It takes 20, 25 seconds," said Sela.

Lines are staggered. People are not allowed to bunch up into inviting targets for a bomber who has gotten this far.

At the check-in desk, your luggage is scanned immediately in a purpose-built area. Sela plays devil's advocate — what if you have escaped the attention of the first four layers of security, and now try to pass a bag with a bomb in it?

"I once put this question to Jacques Duchesneau (the former head of the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority): say there is a bag with play-doh in it and two pens stuck in the play-doh. That is 'Bombs 101' to a screener. I asked Ducheneau, 'What would you do?' And he said, 'Evacuate the terminal.' And I said, 'Oh. My. God.'

"Take Pearson. Do you know how many people are in the terminal at all times? Many thousands. Let's say I'm (doing an evacuation) without panic — which will never happen. But let's say this is the case. How long will it take? Nobody thought about it. I said, 'Two days.'"

A screener at Ben-Gurion has a pair of better options.

First, the screening area is surrounded by contoured, blast-proof glass that can contain the detonation of up to 100 kilos of plastic explosive. Only the few dozen people within the screening area need be removed, and only to a point a few metres away.

Second, all the screening areas contain 'bomb boxes'. If a screener spots a suspect bag, he/she is trained to pick it up and place it in the box, which is blast proof. A bomb squad arrives shortly and wheels the box away for further investigation.

"This is a very small simple example of how we can simply stop a problem that would cripple one of your airports," Sela said.

Five security layers down: you now finally arrive at the only one which Ben-Gurion Airport shares with Pearson — the body and hand-luggage check.

"But here it is done completely, absolutely 180 degrees differently than it is done in North America," Sela said.

"First, it's fast — there's almost no line. That's because they're not looking for liquids, they're not looking at your shoes. They're not looking for everything they look for in North America. They just look at you," said Sela. "Even today with the heightened security in North America, they will check your items to death. But they will never look at you, at how you behave. They will never look into your eyes ... and that's how you figure out the bad guys from the good guys."

That's the process — six layers, four hard, two soft. The goal at Ben-Gurion is to move fliers from the parking lot to the airport lounge in a maximum of 25 minutes.

This doesn't begin to cover the off-site security net that failed so spectacularly in targeting would-be Flight 253 bomber Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab — intelligence. In Israel, Sela said, a coordinated intelligence gathering operation produces a constantly evolving series of threat analyses and vulnerability studies.

"There is absolutely no intelligence and threat analysis done in Canada or the United States," Sela said. "Absolutely none."

But even without the intelligence, Sela maintains, Abdulmutallab would not have gotten past Ben Gurion Airport's behavioural profilers.

So. Eight years after 9/11, why are we still so reactive, so un-Israelified?

Working hard to dampen his outrage, Sela first blames our leaders, and then ourselves.

"We have a saying in Hebrew that it's much easier to look for a lost key under the light, than to look for the key where you actually lost it, because it's dark over there. That's exactly how (North American airport security officials) act," Sela said. "You can easily do what we do. You don't have to replace anything. You have to add just a little bit — technology, training. But you have to completely change the way you go about doing airport security. And that is something that the bureaucrats have a problem with. They are very well enclosed in their own concept."

And rather than fear, he suggests that outrage would be a far more powerful spur to provoking that change.

"Do you know why Israelis are so calm? We have brutal terror attacks on our civilians and still, life in Israel is pretty good. The reason is that people trust their defence forces, their police, their response teams and the security agencies. They know they're doing a good job. You can't say the same thing about Americans and Canadians. They don't trust anybody," Sela said. "But they say, 'So far, so good'. Then if something happens, all hell breaks loose and you've spent eight hours in an airport. Which is ridiculous. Not justifiable

"But, what can you do? Americans and Canadians are nice people and they will do anything because they were told to do so and because they don't know any different."

Sourced from: http://www.thestar.com/news/world/ar...-little-bother

[PSM]

Profiling! First, last, and always! The Sky Caps, the ticket agents, TSA, other passengers, the gate agent, the FAs, and my favorite, have the cockpit crew walk through the cabin and look everyone in the eye.

If they know that EVERYONE is watching, the less committed will get hinky.

Then again, what the hell do I know? I thought that they'd drop this bone.

"Nappie, you're doing a heck of a job!"

We have enemy inside the wire!

I'd like to say "Rant, over!" but I can't.

PSM

p.s.: GWB got reamed for reading "The Pet Goat" (not "My Pet Goat") for 7 minutes to kids. What was B-HO doing with HIS pet goat for three days?

[FirstClass]

Pretty soon terrorists will not need to conceal their bombs because it would be profiling, there for unconstitutional to inspect someone who is holding what "appears" to be a bomb.

Frankly, we have a long road ahead of us, seeing that two people with opposite views cannot sit across from each other and discuss their differences and listen to each others points, even with a moderator between them. You see that alot in politics, our country is run by children, children with bombs and endless bounds of money.

They are comfortable with how things are, when people get comfortable, especially the people in charge, it takes ALLOT to get them to do anything.

I think profiling will happen. But not for another two years or so when attacks become more frequent by the same type of people, or perhaps a change in presidency.

[Warrior-Mentor]

Originally Posted by armymom1228

I don't know about you, but I have a Constutionally garunteed right to privacy. I don't intend on giving it up. This smacks of pervasive fear. As long as we live in fear, they have won. If you think that TSA will be not saving stuff, you are naive.
I might as well just strip on the sidewalk and then enter the terminal.

Tell me just whom is going to pay for all this ultra expensive equipment?
Dogs are cheaper, and better and less invasive.

Tell me do you want your wife to be viewed by some stranger?
AM

Do you have a constitutionally guaranteed right to fly?

Don't want to play?

Trains, cars and boats. Help yourself.

Israel's cracked this nut. Find success, imitate.

[Sneaky Pete]

Originally Posted by armymom1228

I don't know about you, but I have a Constutionally garunteed right to privacy. I don't intend on giving it up. This smacks of pervasive fear. As long as we live in fear, they have won. If you think that TSA will be not saving stuff, you are naive.
I might as well just strip on the sidewalk and then enter the terminal.

Tell me just whom is going to pay for all this ultra expensive equipment?
Dogs are cheaper, and better and less invasive.

Tell me do you want your wife to be viewed by some stranger?
AM

Originally Posted by Warrior-Mentor

Do you have a constitutionally guaranteed right to fly?

Don't want to play?

Trains, cars and boats. Help yourself.

Israel's cracked this nut. Find success, imitate.

The right to privacy is suggested in several amendments to our constitution but despite common belief it is not specifically enumerated.

You could say that you have the:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." (Amendment IV)

Given the circumstances, being sniffed by a dog, or being subjected to an invasive scan seems worth the convenience of lower risk air travel.

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

Given the circumstances, being sniffed by a dog, or being subjected to an invasive scan seems worth the convenience of lower risk air travel.

Is the risk lower? Or are we just deluding ourselves?

[Sneaky Pete]

Originally Posted by armymom1228

Is the risk lower? Or are we just deluding ourselves?

I am not in a position to know with any certainty that millimeter-wave screening devices would improve security. I was just pointing out that we do not in fact have a specific right to privacy that would be violated by their use.

One can argue that the scans amount to an unreasonable search; but as others have mentioned we don't have a constitutional right to fly. When I fly now, I am compelled to agree to a search of my belongings that I would not submit to in a routine traffic stop with no probable cause. Constitutional rights are not in jeopardy on this issue.

Again I think we are all in favor of effectively minimizing the jihadist opportunity to perpetrate violence via air travel.

[nmap]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

Again I think we are all in favor of effectively minimizing the jihadist opportunity to perpetrate violence via air travel.

If I may quibble a bit...

Do we want to minimize it, or do we want some (supposedly) optimal balance of cost, inconvenience, and risk, or do we want something else?

To minimize the risk is simple enough. Drug the passengers into an unconscious state. Stack the naked bodies in racks. Fly them to a destination. Unload them. Let them dress when they awaken. Clearly, that won't fly (pun intended).

We could use a proved, effective system - as done by El Al. But we don't because of cost.

Perhaps our real problem is that we haven't defined what we want very well, so we aren't generating concise answers. Instead, we're going after gardeners who have jars of honey.