Draganov accuracy helps?

[prdubi]

There is a gun author by the name of David Fortier. He did an article on what specific ammo and how to identify it from the Russians that ran seriously MATCH SICK results. His testing using a bonafide Russian Dragunov that came in the early 90's was that with this SPECIAL match ammo he was getting serious sub-MOA groups compared to 3-4 inches with regular 762x54 ammo.

It's out there and there was a thread in another board where a Marine unit member found this special match ammo in the cases in Fallujah.....

[The Reaper]

Originally Posted by prdubi

There is a gun author by the name of David Fortier. He did an article on what specific ammo and how to identify it from the Russians that ran seriously MATCH SICK results. His testing using a bonafide Russian Dragunov that came in the early 90's was that with this SPECIAL match ammo he was getting serious sub-MOA groups compared to 3-4 inches with regular 762x54 ammo.

It's out there and there was a thread in another board where a Marine unit member found this special match ammo in the cases in Fallujah.....

I find it hard to believe that any Dragunov is capable of sub-MOA accuracy, regardless of the ammo.

If someone can produce a Dragunov that can consistently put 10 rounds under a MOA at 100 meters or more, rather than cherry picking a few lucky three round groups, I would be amazed. The tolerances are just too loose and the action not rigid enough, IMHO.

TR

[prdubi]

It's the ammo dude, believe me.
And Fortier doesn't dicker around with 3 hole groups. He plays with 5 hole groups and sometimes goes all the way to ten to get a more accurate result.

Any rifle can reach there.

A good article talked about making the FAL series rifles near sub-MOA.

One noted author found the holy grail for the FN-FAL series rifles including the Inch Commonwealth series and that his rifles including those he worked with was completely happy and in the bliss with Hornady TAP 150 grain ammo.

Author swore all day on it and his results ranged from .50 to 1 MOA using the TAP ammo.

Seriously...the Dragunov is pretty capable...it's just the ammo.

Like any weapons platform.....your mileage may vary but in the end....ammo brings consistency no matter what and from various sources and one notable gun writer...the Russian Match ammo MADE, researched and developed specifically for the Dragunov is the missing link to making it an true sniper rifle.

7N1 sniper load and the 148 grain LPS ball. The 7N1 is a 152 grain FMJBT designed specifically for use in the SVD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x54mmR

Here;s his article on the subject
http://www.snipersparadise.com/equip...SniperLoad.htm


Here is the Russian criteria for groupsize...The Russian LVE cartridge factory states the accuracy of their common cartridge (57-N-323C) to be less than 24 cm at 300 m (0.8 mrad; 2.8 MOA) at R100[5] - "R100" being the groupsize of three series of 20 shots at 300 m. Their sniper cartridges (7N1, 7N14) are stated less than 8 cm at 300 m (0.3 mrad; 0.9 MOA) at R100

Like I said..it's not 3 shot...1 shot or some mickey mouse bench trick.

http://www.lveplant.ru/boevpat_eng.htm

Here's the ammo plant that makes it. Last I heard...it can be purchased quite easily in Europe and Finland. The one I have for my collection was purchased from a gentleman in Sweden.

Used it on a Romanian PSL belonging to a friend and it was quite simply.....amazing.....well worth the 40 bucks I spent to get it here from overseas....

[The Reaper]

"Dude"

I was involved in a comparative research study of the Dragunov vs. the M-21 in 1983. The AMU assisted me in my research. I shot the Dragunov quite a bit.

The ammo, along with the weapon/optics, and the shooter, are the critical components of accuracy testing. Each one affects the accuracy capability in an aggregate manner, and a sub-MOA shooter, with a sub-MOA load cannot reliably shoot sub-MOA with a 3 MOA weapon.

Our findings were that the Dragunov itself lacks the capability (in both design and manufacture) of being a sub-MOA rifle. It may be possible for a Dragunov specialist to take the rifle, tear it apart, and rebuild it with an aftermarket barrel, tight chamber the rifle for the specific round, reinforce the receiver, hand fit and lap the bolt, tune the trigger, weld on the scope mount, install a better piece of glass, etc., and produce a weapon that MIGHT be capable of a MOA for a brief period, much like an M-21. The weapon, as manufactured, is NOT a tack driver, regardless of the ammo.

FWIW, I have met David Fortier, and have no issues with him. OTOH, his job is to write articles that sell magazines.

BTW, I previously cited the same ammunition numbers that you did earlier in this discussion. Have you read all of the posts on this thread?

TR

[prdubi]

yes...I've met Fortier myself a couple of times, he was a good friend of my Uncle's best friend. Charles Karwan, while Fortier is not the noted sicked gun nut like Karwan, I like his writings and various articles.

I salute you for what you said, all I am saying from my limited experience is that the Dragunov is capable....but I AM not gonna say..that it's a PALMA rifle it in itself nor is it better than our system with the m24 and m40 series and even the m21.

I could bet you to the moon that your experience back in 1983 would have been vastly different if you were using the sniper ammo made(7N1) SPECIFICALLY for that rifle or were you guys using it or just standard ball or special hand loads ?

Curious on that.

I'm not trying to piss in anyone's cornflakes or do a measuring contest on our wieners......for some special watering hole but I do congrat you for being a participant in that 1983 incident.

I'm just saying it's capable of sub or near sub MOA if the right ammo is used. I've seen it only once and that was in Hungary and the British Marines that came to Hungary brought their lovely AI setup...which still danced around the Drag despite the ammo.

While there are far better play sticks to use in the field...if the Dragunov is all I got....it'll do decently....

I rest with humble regards...

[The Reaper]

We used the sniper grade ammo, as well as even handloading for it.

What might be sub-MOA in a US bolt gun chambered for it, or even in a Mosin-Nagant, will not hold MOA with a Dragunov.

A Dragunov is better than an AK, but not better than any of the US bolt guns, or even the 7.62x51 semis, IMHO.

TR

[Gene Econ]

Originally Posted by prdubi

I salute you for what you said, all I am saying from my limited experience is that the Dragunov is capable....but I AM not gonna say..that it's a PALMA rifle it in itself nor is it better than our system with the m24 and m40 series and even the m21.

I'm just saying it's capable of sub or near sub MOA if the right ammo is used. I've seen it only once and that was in Hungary and the British Marines that came to Hungary brought their lovely AI setup...which still danced around the Drag despite the ammo.

While there are far better play sticks to use in the field...if the Dragunov is all I got....it'll do decently....

I rest with humble regards...

prdubi:

Why is the Dragunov all you have?

What type of outfit are you an armorer for?

Gene

[7624U]

Ive had better luck with PKM ammo threw the SVD then with standard ball ammo see if you can get yourself some black tip AP ammo thats used in the PKM machinegun.
but like TR said you are not going to get 1 MOA out of that gun.