Finding a weapons instructor

[Team Sergeant]

Finding a good weapons trainer. Funny you ask this as I've recently been inundated with requests for the same, how do I find a good weapons trainer.

In order to understand my reply one should make a few individual assessments:

What is my current level of weapons training.
What sort of training do you desire? (Basic-Pistol, rifle, defensive pistol, rifle, offensive pistol rifle?)
What is my budget or time constraints.
Am I willing to travel?

I could go on with the self assessment but I’m sure you get the idea…. Along that same thought process one should identify a trainer with similar capabilities: i.e.; safe weapons handling (basic weapons training) does not require instruction from a former member of a classified counter-terrorist unit, SWAT training should not be conducted by a IPSC or “competitive shooter”, the use of lethal force should not be taught by anyone that has never been in harms way. Match your training with the proper level trainer.

Picking an instructor is very difficult these days as there is a veritable plethora of weapons trainers and masters of fluff. Many have the proper “credentials” and sadly to say, many do not.

I've seen bio after bio of weapons trainers/instructors with no formal weapons training, listed on the internet and in some large scale training facilities. They are easy to spot, if you know what you’re looking for….

John Doe, firearms instructor, advanced pistol, assault rifle, sniper etc etc etc. John has been a firearms instructor with “insert weapons training facility here” for over twenty years. He is an avid hunter and has over 40 years in and around weapons. He has written articles (in major airsoft magazines) dealing with weapons training, tactics and procedures.

As you read John’s bio a few things that are missing, credentials. Some of the leading names in the firearm training world have had little to no formal firearms instruction. Yes you heard that right, little to zero training. In fact I know of civilians that have run from gun fights in Iraq, now teaching weapons training and flaunting their “trigger time” as a PSD contractor overseas. I've had police call and ask me if Special Forces soldiers use gunpowder for breaching because his “civilian tactical breaching instructor said he had taught Special Forces soldiers/SEALS etc” in the use of gunpowder to breach. To which I replied, “Why of course officer Fred, most time we just throw away that state of the art plastic explosive, especially designed for breaching, disregard our classified breaching classes and go with Billy-Bob’s special gunpowder breaching charge.” True story.


They are out there teaching. Why, because no-one has yet to hold them accountable for their lackadaisical weapons training. They are nothing more than snake oil salesmen using today’s headlines and preying on the ignorant masses.

Lest I digress.

Be specific in your intent, basic weapons training should be taught by a NRA certified firearms trainer or better. There are thousands of individuals out there with these credentials, find them and get the proper training. If your instructor does not have any NRA training, “certified” LEO training or “certified” military training find another instructor. Vetting an NRA weapons instructor is as simple as visiting the NRA website.

Just being an LEO or former military does NOT make one a weapons trainer. Ask to see their certificates of training. Then use due diligence and verify their claims. If their bio reads like John Doe’s above and only has “former LEO, or former military” take note, as they might have been riding a desk for 20 years or a military truck driver. Don’t be fooled.
Most first-class LEO instructors will list their firearms training as will most former military instructors, no formal training means substandard instruction. Look for the credentials. Credentials from “insert weapons training facility, academy, institute, etc here” should be dimly viewed. These weapons training facilities, academies and institutes usually have but one graduation standard, did the individual pay his tuition. Again, sad but very true. Most schools only graduation standard is ensuring that the individual demonstrated safe weapons handling techniques, is not a menace to society and paid in full. If these conditions are met these weapons training facilities, academies and institutes will confer a weapons training diploma upon that individual. These schools are also “self perpetuating” as in “John Doe is a graduate of “insert weapons training facility, academy, institute, etc here” etc etc etc, big deal, now we have fluff masters replicating themselves.

The NRA on the other hand has a very good training standard and an ever increasing difficulty level of instruction for students to obtain. I would highly recommend NRA training to everyone that can attend.

Here’s a big request I’m now currently addressing: My son is in the infantry and I’d like to send him a shooting school any suggestions?

Answer:
Do NOT, under any circumstances, send a new member of the US military to a civilian shooting school. Civilian shooting schools, institutes, academy’s etc are designed for DEFENSIVE weapons techniques, tactics and procedures. The US military “combatant” forces are taught, primarily, OFFENSIVE techniques tactics and procedures. If you ask any LEO in the US how many offensive shooting schools they have attended, 99.9% will answer, none. Now there are a few schools, very few, that I would recommend but we’re not going to list them on this board.

That's all for now.

I'm sure some will have more question regarding this topic.

TS
off for more coffee

[Sten]

Thank you.

[JMH85]

Originally Posted by Team Sergeant

Civilian shooting schools, institutes, academy’s etc are designed for DEFENSIVE weapons techniques, tactics and procedures. The US military “combatant” forces are taught, primarily, OFFENSIVE techniques tactics and procedures. If you ask any LEO in the US how many offensive shooting schools they have attended, 99.9% will answer, none. Now there are a few schools, very few, that I would recommend but we’re not going to list them on this board.

Forgive my civilian ignorance, but why do 99.9% answer no? I guess I always thought they had a balance of offense and defense training.

John

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by JMH85

Forgive my civilian ignorance, but why don't we train LEO's in offensive techniques and tactics? I guess I always thought they had a balance of offense and defense training.

John

Because their ROE is written by civilian lawyers.

TS

(That's for another thread, ask a cop or better yet, a crimminal defense lawyer.)

[STR8SHTR]

EXCELLANT post TS!!! Thanks alot for taking the time to post this information.

[rubberneck]

Yet another informative thread. I do have one question. As you stated here you guys are trained to employ your weapons in an offensive manner so how does that impact training with a former SOF especially if they don't have a LEO background as well? After all you guys are trained to fight in ways that no civilian can employ and expect a jury to later accquit your actions.

If you chose an instructor that has been trained with one set of ROE's in mind, to the point where his actions are second nature, is it likely that they can modify their training in a manner inconsistant with their training? I hope this makes sense.

[kgoerz]

Good thread, what you mentioned has always been a sore spot with me. After practising my trade-craft for many years I only realized how little I knew until I was sent to be an instructor. I concure there are to many people out there that claim to be qualified instructors. Ever since I entered the civilian sector I have seen countless proclaimed instructors unable to even set up a range let alone instruct students on one. I wish there was a way to know if somone is qaulified besides word of mouth. The NRA has a good program to do this. Right now the only thing anyone has to go on is their own reputation which isn't all a bad thing to go bye if you been in the bussiness for awhile

[Peregrino]

Originally Posted by rubberneck

Yet another informative thread. I do have one question. As you stated here you guys are trained to employ your weapons in an offensive manner so how does that impact training with a former SOF especially if they don't have a LEO background as well? After all you guys are trained to fight in ways that no civilian can employ and expect a jury to later accquit your actions.

If you chose an instructor that has been trained with one set of ROE's in mind, to the point where his actions are second nature, is it likely that they can modify their training in a manner inconsistant with their training? I hope this makes sense.

Valid point. First there is a difference between SOF and Special Forces. SF is a more restrictive subset of SOF. We are selected and employed differently than regular SOF, e.g. everybody from Rangers to CA/PSYOP. One of the primary issues is mental flexibility. That means ability to adapt to the environment - not just a set of programmed reflexes. We live with ROE (rules of engagement) as a matter of course. The "defensive" scenarios you refer to are just a more restrictive ROE. Any instructor that can't shift gears to the environment he's teaching in might not (probably does not) have the breadth of experience required to provide a well rounded course of instruction. And as TS stated earlier what does the instructor's formal training CV look like. If you are seeking formal "I paid good money for this stuff" instruction then your instructor should have the NRA certs and whatever the local gov't requires for CCW permits. In NC I know for a fact that certification requires a comprehensive grounding in the "Use of Force" options/requirements (and my instructor was quite happy to cover the costs of getting it wrong - course he's a lawyer and his instructor was Masaad Ayoob so he was a little heavy handed about it - for good reason BTW). Don't get confused about tactics and techniques, offense and defense. Once you've mastered fundamentals, the rest is application. The "warrior mindset" that governs how you apply those skills applies equally to offensive and defensive situations. Besides - what any instructor teaches you is just another tool/skill set. How you integrate and apply that information is ultimately your responsibility. My .02 - Peregrino

[Team Sergeant]

Originally Posted by rubberneck

Yet another informative thread. I do have one question. As you stated here you guys are trained to employ your weapons in an offensive manner so how does that impact training with a former SOF especially if they don't have a LEO background as well? After all you guys are trained to fight in ways that no civilian can employ and expect a jury to later accquit your actions.

If you chose an instructor that has been trained with one set of ROE's in mind, to the point where his actions are second nature, is it likely that they can modify their training in a manner inconsistant with their training? I hope this makes sense.

I can not make sense of your question, just what are you asking?

[Sten]

I have taken the first step in my "formal" weapons instruction.

I have signed up for a 3 day Pistol class taught by Louis Awerbuck.

The class:

Tactical Handgun - Stage I – August 18-20, 2006 Boone County Indiana

Designed to create reflexive gunhandling, good marksmanship and tactical thinking, this course encompasses shooting from a ready position, the drawstroke and shooting from the holster, shooting from various tactical body positions, loading, unloading and reloading, malfunction clearances, shooting on the move, moving targets, dim light and flashlight shooting and weapon retention.

Ammunition requirement is 500 rounds.

[ScottM]

I took a Close Quarters Battle Course with SHD COnsulting last year (http://www.shdconsulting.net/shdhome.html) . They did not appear to have a huge issue with the ROE problem. Part of that may have to do with the staff which were comprised of 2 5th Group QPs and SWAT Officer, and part with the students they had in the class. Most in the class were preparing for deployment overseas and had Ranger tabs, some were also Police Officers as well as Soldiers. I was the only one with no prior military experience. They broke it down into how each would do it and have us execute according to our ROE. As pointed out before they focused on the fundamentals and prior to entering the shoot house we all had to meet very specific/ stringent target groups. Wondering if anyone else had taken a course with SHD and what the QP's thoughts were on the mix SHD incorporates.

Thanks for the time